Jivan Mukti Viveka

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Jivan Mukti Viveka

Postby Arvind » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:26 am

Hari Om,

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Re: Jivan Mukti Viveka

Postby vanajaravinair » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:15 pm

Hari Om

Wish to participate in this discussion forum. My name is Vanaja.
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Re: Jivan Mukti Viveka

Postby Arvind » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:41 pm

Hari Om Vanaja ji,

Welcome to the Discussion Forum!

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Re: Jivan Mukti Viveka

Postby sunilgoel29 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:37 pm

Hari Om!

I had asked in the class how can Vividisha sanyasa lead to videha Mukti. Swamiji explained that the Vividisha sanyasi is a seeker who ultimately reaches aparoksha gnana and realizes that he is not the body, which is as good as videha Mukti. This explanation of videha Mukti varies from the usually accepted meaning whereby a Jivanmukta attains videha Mukti upon dissolution of the body. I wonder why Swami Vidyaranya Ji selected this word videha Mukti for a Vividisha sanyasi. It creates confusion......unless there is some other hidden meaning which I am not able to understand.

Will appreciate input from all members please.

In Shri Guru Smriti

Sunil Goel
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Re: Jivan Mukti Viveka

Postby subbugnanam » Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:36 pm

Hari Om,
I have already posted this in reply to a query but could not make out whether it has reached or not. I am therefor sending again.

Sannyasins of two kinds,
(1)Vividisha Sannyasa(renunciation of the seeker) and
(2)Vidvat Sannyasa (renunciation of the knower)
The first is the cause of liberation after death (Videhamukti). There are four varieties of Vividisha Sannyasa. These are—Kutichaka (staying in one place-living on Biksha), Bahoodaka (without any fixed abode, moving from place to place and living on Biksha) Hamsa and Paramahamsa.
Athi-Theevra Sanyasin has no desire for all the worlds but interested only in the Knowledge of SELF and desire for liberation from the cycle of death and birth. Out of those who are Hamsa Sanyasin goes to Brahmaloka, realizes the absolute truth there and gets liberated. This is known as Kramamukti or liberation by stages.
If Hamsa type matures to the state of paramahamsa, the direct means to the ultimate knowledge while living. Such a paramahamsa knower, desiring the atma loka renounces their worldly life and pursues continuously atma loka. Once he acquires the qualities such as control of mind, body and the senses, which are necessary as means to the realisation of Brahman, such a Paramahamsa during the life span itself, lead him to Moksha.
My understanding so far is that
Seeker of the Truth, may realize the TRUTH, only by Giving up the performance of Kamya karma (actions motivated by desire for the fruit of action), without entering into the Sanyasa Ashram, provided he Devotes himself to the study of the scriptures, reflection thereon and meditate upon for the realization of the Self, WILL OR MAY realize the TRUTH. Some may realize the TRUTH at the time of death alone, called VIDEHA MUKTHA with or without Sanyasa Ashram.
and the second type VIDVAT SANYASIN is the one who has realized the TRUTH (Brahman),(i.e. KNOWER or thathva Jnani).
My understanding about this is
Only those who have realized the TRUTH during the life span itself, he having understood the reality, renounces the worldly life, and lead his remaining life without begging bowl, sacred thread(because the knowledge of BRAHMAN itself is his sacred thread), tuft etc and live in a detached way. For him there is no fixed place of abode. The body because of prarabdha continues to live to complete the started process of living. He is a liberated person while still living in the body called JIVAN MUKTHA or VIDWAD SANYASIN.
Hari Om, With regards,
A.V.ANANTHA SUBRAMANIAM
SADHAKA
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Re: Jivan Mukti Viveka

Postby vanajaravinair » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:04 pm

Hari Om Sunilgoel-ji,
- “Understanding from the webinar sessions of Swami Advayanandaji”
The result of vividisha sanyas is videha mukti. Experiencing aparoksha jnana puts an end to ‘Avidya’, and also puts an end to samsara, as ‘bhavi deha mukti’ is videha mukti, according to Vidyaranya swamiji. Jivan mukti viveka is caused by Vasanakshaya and Manonasha. Having come to know of Aparoksha Jnana, he is still only in the 4th stage of Sapta Jnana Bhumika.
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Re: Jivan Mukti Viveka

Postby vanajaravinair » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:39 pm

Hari Om Subbugnanam-ji

Thank you for your detailed explanation. Wish to add something more to the first part of your post.
There are three types of Vairagya.
1) Manda vairagya, which is not an adhikari for sanyas, as it is just a temporary viragya (for eg. smashana vairagya).
2) Teevra vairagya, - Kutichaka and Bahudaka come under this category. Kutichaka are those who make a hermitage or kuti and stays alone there. Bahudaka are physically stronger and so they keep on travelling from one place to another.
3) Teevratara vairagya - Hamsa and Paramahamsa come under this category. Hamsa has teevra vairagya but still have interest in Brahmaloka. He wants to enjoy the fruits of Brahmaloka prapti, they have krama mukti.
Paramahamsas attain videha mukti followed by jeevan mukti.
Vividisha Sanyas and Vidvat Sanyas come under Teevratara.
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Re: Jivan Mukti Viveka

Postby sunilgoel29 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:22 pm

Hari Om vanajaravinair ji,

Thank you for your explanation. Is the meaning as conveyed by Swami Vidyaranya ji, the accepted meaning as per Advaita Vedanta? I was of the understanding, a Jivanmukta attains videhamukti upon leaving the body. If both meanings are correct, I'm ok with that.

Pranaams!

Sunil
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Re: Jivan Mukti Viveka

Postby subbugnanam » Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:52 am

Hari Om,
Sunilji,
As per my understanding, Jivan Mukta has already left the body and only BMI decays and perishes as per the prarabda.
Whereas, during process of self realisation, before realisation, due to EGO and left out vasanas, as his Mano Nasa and Vasana ksya not complete, there is a possibiity of VIDEHA MUKTHI or else bondage continues.
Hari Om.
A.V.Ananatha subramaniam.
Hari Om, With regards,
A.V.ANANTHA SUBRAMANIAM
SADHAKA
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Re: Jivan Mukti Viveka

Postby sunilgoel29 » Sun Jan 17, 2016 4:29 pm

Dear Shri Subramaniam Ji,

Pranaams!

Do you mean that in the case of an "unwise" person, Videhamukti is still possible if he is still to become a gnani? How can that be possible, Sir? In such a case, I think, Videhamukti will be like any other death and the departing ego will again attach itself to another body and hence not attain any Mukti at all. I think, for Videhamukti to take place, Jivanmukta must precede it.

Kind regards and Hari Om!
Sunil Goel
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Re: Jivan Mukti Viveka

Postby subbugnanam » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:34 pm

This is A.V. Anantha Subramaniam. Hari Om.
I am refining the thought process as under to conclude the discussion.
As per VanajaNairji, One who got Aparoksha Jnana, he is still only in the 4th stage of Sapta Jnana Bhumika.
I list below seven Bhumika for easy reference.
1 subheccha (the desire for enlightenment).
2 vicharana (enquiry)
3 tanumanasa (tenuous mind).
4 satwapatti (self-realisation).
5 asamsakti (non-attachment).
6 padarthabhavana (non-perception of objects).
7 turyaga (transcendence).
Vividisha Sanyasi, moves from 1st to 3rd Bhumika. On realising the TRUTH he remains detached with his BMI and becomes Vidvad Sanyasi moves to 4th Bhumika.
Vividisha Sanyasi, remains in that state till he is in a position to shed his EGO, and remain without any desire and attachments. Before realisation, if he dies, there is a possibility to realize the TRUTH, just before his death, in such a case he attains VIDHEHA MUKTHI. If not, as per his Vasanas, he may take his birth.
Whereas Jivan Mukthi remains detached from his BMI as such he is a VIDHEHA Muthi and his BMI decays as per Prarabdha.
Hari Om, AVAS.
Hari Om, With regards,
A.V.ANANTHA SUBRAMANIAM
SADHAKA
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Re: Jivan Mukti Viveka

Postby subbugnanam » Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:31 pm

Hari Om,
Further elaborating on the saptha Bhomika, I have given my analysis.

The saptha bhoomikas are mentioned in the Kaivalya Navaneetam. Points were taken from it also.
1 Subheccha: Desire for truth OR enlightenment.

The knowledge of the existence of Supreme makes one to wean from unedifying associations and desires,
2 Vicharana:
Investigation into the truth i.e. enquiry or mananam.

To associate with enlightened sages, learn from them and reflect on the truth, is called investigation
3 Tanumanasi:
Pure and attenuated mind (tenuous mind).

To be free from desires by meditating on the Truth with faith, is the attenuation of the mind
4 Sattvapatti: The realisation of the truth (self-realisation) Aparoksha Jnani or Brahmavid.

The shining forth of the highest knowledge in the mind owing to the development of the foregoing conditions, is realisation.
Takes up VIDVAD SANSAYASA

5 Asamsakti:
A detached outlook on the universe and its contents (non-attachment).

To be free from illusion by firm realisation of Truth is the detached outlook on the universe.
Further the mind becomes thinner. Jnani feels concern for the maintenance of the body;
6 Padarthabhavani: Untainted awareness of Self. (Non-perception of objects).

The bliss of the non-dual Self, devoid of triads [knower, knowing, known, and so on] is untainted awareness of Self
The mind becomes thinner and thinner. Jnani is reminded of about his body by others. They remain Samadhi.

7 Turiya: the highest and indescribable state. (transcendence).

Sublime silence of the very nature of Self is Turiya.
The mind disappears. Jnani never becomes aware of the body either by himself or through others. They remain Samadhi.



Further explanation given about 4th to 7th Bhomikas are:
Prarabdha, i.e. karma which is bearing fruit, differs according to the actions of the persons in past incarnations. Therefore their present pursuits also differ among jnanis who are all, however, liberated even here. They may perform holy tapas; or engage in trade and commerce; or rule a kingdom; or wander about as mendicants.
The Aparoksha Jnani who by steadfast practice have gained clear realisation of Brahman, continues to perform even the hard duties of their caste and stage in life, exactly as prescribed by the shastras, for the benefit of others, without themselves swerving from their supreme state.
Should passions rise up they disappear instantly and cannot taint the mind of the Aparoksha Jnani who lives in society detached like water on a lotus leaf. They look ignorant, not showing forth their knowledge and remain mute owing to intensity of inward bliss.
They would not think of the past or future; would partake of what comes unsolicited; would not wonder if the sun turned into the moon or at any marvel, whether the sky were to spread its shoots down like a banyan tree or a corpse were to be revived; nor would they distinguish good and bad, for they always remain as the unchanging witness of all.
Although there are distinguishing characteristics in the lives of the different stages, who are themselves very rare in the world, yet there is absolutely no difference in the experience of liberation
Hari Om, With regards,
A.V.ANANTHA SUBRAMANIAM
SADHAKA
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Re: Jivan Mukti Viveka

Postby subbugnanam » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:20 pm

Hari Om,
This is A.V.Anantha Subramaniam.
In today's JM class, topic arose about Linga Sarira. It was said that the Linga Sarira falls at the same place where the body falls.
My doubt,
The body leaves the Jivan Muktha, only when the Prarabdha karma is exhausted. Once prarabdha karma is exhausted there is no question of Linga sarira as there are no desire and no vasana. Therefore the linga sarira dissolves alongwith the Body Mind and Intellect.

Can anyone confirm whether my thought is ok.
Hari Om.
Hari Om, With regards,
A.V.ANANTHA SUBRAMANIAM
SADHAKA
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Re: Jivan Mukti Viveka

Postby 21512sw4 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:41 pm

Hari Om

I want to understand what is nature Svarupa & characteristics Lakshanam? Can anybody explain in simple terms. Is there any subtle point of difference between these two terms?

Namaste
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Re: Jivan Mukti Viveka

Postby 21512sw4 » Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:34 pm

Hari Om

I am Kalyanasundaram. I would like to share my understanding on AVS question.

Linga Sarira survives for Agyani as ego Ahamkara continues which means he identifies himself as karta & bhokta & in the case of Gyani, the understanding that the feeling of karta & mithya as Mithya & his vision is corrected that he is not different from Brahaman - he has Aproksha Anubuthi the correct understanding about I. Which means the Ego which identifies with false I falls. As a Jeevan Mukta, Prarabhda contines & he is still a Perceiver Feeler Thinker but his understanding is corrected with the teaching of scriptures. Hunger & Thirst is there but he maintain his body with the perfect understanding of Mithya - hunger is Mithya, Eating is Mithya as hinger & thirst is not for Atma. Also he has no hurt & guilt feeling as hurt is mithya & guilt is Mithya. So when the body falls the Linga Sarira has no role to play & resolves with Brahman.

Namaste

Kalyan
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Re: Jivan Mukti Viveka

Postby sunilgoel29 » Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:32 am

Hari Om!

I think Swaroopa is internal like heat is to fire and characteristics are external which can be observed by others, like the luminosity and shape of fire. Nature will never change, but lakshanas may change from time to time. A jivanmukta's Swaroopa is that he is always at peace and lakshana can be the glow on his face, or the gleam in his eyes.

Let's have opinions of others too.

In Shri Guru Smriti

Sunil Goel
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