Week 9 Queries

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Week 9 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:27 am

Hari Om Everyone!

Very deep class today... Please post all queries related to week 9 in this discussion thread! I will post the notes, homework, and helpful materials today, along with the YouTube link to today's webinar later today.

Here is the link to this week's video: https://youtu.be/I6Nd2O6neWo

Please also don't forget to check out the Google Drive, which has lots of materials on it this week!
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B275bhG7zi2zd1NsSF9Ddl9TUkU

Please accept my sincere apologies for uploading the answers to week 8's homework so late.

Much love to all,

Varun
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby ianr » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:23 pm

I have found the notes but not the link to this lesson. Otherwise, I still don't seem to be on the email list. Hence, I don't have full access to the orientation of the course, which may account for discrepancies in my comments. That said, despite what I consider 'gaps', I really, really look forward to next instalments and working 'with' the process.

At the moment, I am wondering whether the 'unclean verb root babies' were Panini's invention and a way he found to encode procedures relating to them. Or did they predate him, as seems to be suggested in this week's notes, parts having got lost which he simply reinstated. Well, perhaps, you have explained this in the lesson... but this question seems to me to be of pivotal importance. It would make sense that they predated him and had specific points of reference.

What is an appropriate ending in Sanskrit?

Ian
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby banibha » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:15 am

Namaste Varunji,
I am trying to do the homework from Dhatu Path, it's not bad --- thanks to you.

I am confused about the "na bibhakti tusma:' sutra which is 1.3.4. I do not know the 18 verbal conjugation pratyaya and 21 nominal declension pratyaya. and were they are coming from. In Dhatupath compressed book page 3 says 'tingprotyaya'
'supprotyaya' ete Bibhaktisutra + ..... What that means?

Please explain.

Dhannyabad

Bani Bhattacharyya
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby Ripersa » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:28 am

Namaste Varunji. In week 8 queries i asked about the टु in sutra 1.3.5 . why does it not mean all of the ट varga as in sutra 1.3.4 tu meant all of ta varga. Also in week 9 the dhaatu paatha says bhvaadigana, i was wondering why the first dhaatu is not bhu? thanks Rishi.
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby rashmivinay » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:32 pm

Namaste Varun ji!

I have 2 points to ask :

1. I am intrigued by the fact that the dhaatu paatha lists out the dhaatus in their original forms and their meanings. As in the example you mentioned "much" has the meaning "mokshane". But when we look at the word "moksh", we are supposed to arrive at the root word "much" after breaking it down etc. isn't it? Is Panini's approach top-down or bottom-up? It seems to me that the vyakarana shaastra exists to help people to understand and interpret the knowledge of the universe in the Vedas. But it also seems that Panini wrote his ashtaadhyaayee also to enable creation of newer stuff in Sanskrit. What was the real idea behind Panini's work?

2. So far, considering the number of sutras we have dealt to get a dhaatu ready, I feel lot of memorizing and practice is needed to confidently work with the sutras. Do you think we need to memorize everything to really get a hold of the language? I came across a word called praNidhaana while studying Patanjali's yoga sutras. When I look at the word right now, I know nothing about the word apart from its meaning as given in the book I am reading. I usually try to look up the etymology and try to get to the root of it, but I am hoping that after I complete your course, I will be able to understand such words without really having to look them up always. Is this realistic? Are we heading in this direction that I am thinking?

Thanks,
Rashmi.
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HomeWork Answers

Postby gautampradhan1228 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:13 pm

Dear Varun Bhaiyya,
I checked every word but did not find the answers of the previous week's lesson. :? :?
Thanking You,
Gautam.
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby punita » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:01 pm

Dear Varunji,

Looks like I missed something in the lecture but I can't understand how in your latest homework examples (1 and others) the last vowel has gotten nasalized?
ञिष्वदा -> ञिष्वदाँ ?

Thanks for keeping the classes very engaging even if we may not always keep up the pace. The concluding bit in the last lecture regarding Om as the substratum of all vibrations/dhatus was intriguing...I am looking forward to the unfolding mystery!

thanks, punita
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:08 pm

banibha wrote:Namaste Varunji,
I am trying to do the homework from Dhatu Path, it's not bad --- thanks to you.

I am confused about the "na bibhakti tusma:' sutra which is 1.3.4. I do not know the 18 verbal conjugation pratyaya and 21 nominal declension pratyaya. and were they are coming from. In Dhatupath compressed book page 3 says 'tingprotyaya'
'supprotyaya' ete Bibhaktisutra + ..... What that means?

Please explain.

Dhannyabad

Bani Bhattacharyya


Dear Bani ji,

Hari Om!

No need to worry about "न विभक्तौ तुस्माः" right now. We'll get to these प्रत्ययs very soon, but don't bother about them just yet. But in case you want to see them, go to page 10-11 in the धातुपाठ book, and take a look at the 4 tables, one for लट्, लोट्, लङ्, and विधिलिङ् each. These tables have 18 प्रत्ययs each. These are the 18 विभक्ति प्रत्ययs for each of these 4 लकारs (tenses and moods). The विभक्ति प्रत्ययs for noun forms will not be covered in this course, but I may introduce you to them just to familiarize you sometime soon.

Hope this helps for now!

Varun
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:04 pm

rashmivinay wrote:Namaste Varun ji!

I have 2 points to ask :

1. I am intrigued by the fact that the dhaatu paatha lists out the dhaatus in their original forms and their meanings. As in the example you mentioned "much" has the meaning "mokshane". But when we look at the word "moksh", we are supposed to arrive at the root word "much" after breaking it down etc. isn't it? Is Panini's approach top-down or bottom-up? It seems to me that the vyakarana shaastra exists to help people to understand and interpret the knowledge of the universe in the Vedas. But it also seems that Panini wrote his ashtaadhyaayee also to enable creation of newer stuff in Sanskrit. What was the real idea behind Panini's work?

2. So far, considering the number of sutras we have dealt to get a dhaatu ready, I feel lot of memorizing and practice is needed to confidently work with the sutras. Do you think we need to memorize everything to really get a hold of the language? I came across a word called praNidhaana while studying Patanjali's yoga sutras. When I look at the word right now, I know nothing about the word apart from its meaning as given in the book I am reading. I usually try to look up the etymology and try to get to the root of it, but I am hoping that after I complete your course, I will be able to understand such words without really having to look them up always. Is this realistic? Are we heading in this direction that I am thinking?

Thanks,
Rashmi.


Dear Rashmi ji,

Great questions.

1. The brilliance of Pāṇini's approach is that it is both top-down and bottom-up. That is, you can use his सूत्रs to break down words and get to their roots, and you can also take roots, mix them with various प्रत्ययs, and get to final product words. This is what I explained earlier, when I gave them definition of व्याकरण. व्युत्पाद्यन्ते व्याक्रियन्ते प्रकृतिप्रत्ययादिभिः शब्दाः अनेन इति व्याकरणम् -- The creation and breaking down of words with the use of प्रकृतिs (roots and nominal stems), प्रत्ययs (suffixes/affixes), etc., is known as व्याकरण.

2. Yes, we are going in the direction of being able to break words down in the way you are talking about. By the end of this course, you should at least be able to recognize the धातु from प्रणिधान, given that you keep looking at the धातुs in the धातुपाठ. It's not really about memorizing so much as recognizing. Memorizing is good for creating, recognizing is good for breaking down. It is also worth mentioning here that there are 24 उपसर्गs (prefixes), that can be added (in combination sometimes, too) to the beginning of धातुs. So in this case, for example, we have प्र + नि + धा + ल्युट् (remember ल्युट् from this week's notes?). प्र is a prefix, नि is a prefix, धा is the धातु, and ल्युट् is the प्रत्यय. Yes, soon enough you should have the ability to break things down like this quite easily. I recommend having patience with the material. It may not immediately be apparent to you, but sometimes just letting the word sit in your mind for some time helps -- it melts on its own. This is what I normally do if I don't immediately recognize a word. I just sit with it. Then after some time, suddenly like a revelation it strikes me -- ah! This is what it means! You'll get there too. Don't give up!

All the best,

Varun
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:10 pm

punita wrote:Dear Varunji,

Looks like I missed something in the lecture but I can't understand how in your latest homework examples (1 and others) the last vowel has gotten nasalized?
ञिष्वदा -> ञिष्वदाँ ?

Thanks for keeping the classes very engaging even if we may not always keep up the pace. The concluding bit in the last lecture regarding Om as the substratum of all vibrations/dhatus was intriguing...I am looking forward to the unfolding mystery!

thanks, punita


Dear Punita ji,

Hari Om!

Actually, the last vowel did not get nasalized, it already was nasalized. We have to recognize it by looking at the second column in the धातुपाठ, which shows how the धातु looks without its अनुबन्धs (after इत्-संज्ञा and सत्वादि चत्वारि कार्याणि). We simply have to retrofit the nasalization based on which vowels get लोप. We don't create the nasalization. Hope this clarifies a bit.

I'm glad you are enjoying the philosophical meanderings that this webinar is allowing me to indulge in! Keep meditating on them, and these things will reveal themselves to you. You can then speak from your own experience. All the ऋषिs came to these same conclusions independently, just by meditating on the deeper aspects of life. I hope these realizations come to all of us in due time, too!

All the best,

Varun
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby Indrani » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:29 pm

Hari om

1. In the sutra 'Chutu', the tu has a big 'u', but the varga of 'tu' has a small 'u' , whereas 'chu' has the small 'u' as in the varga 'chu'. Which is correct ?? Please help

2. In Adhirnitudavaha, 'tu' is there, but 'da' is given instead of 'du'. In your example,'dukrin', you have taken 'du'. So, is it du or 'da' Please clarify.

3. Please post answers for week 8.

Thanks
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby Vasishta » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:10 am

Dear Varun-ji,
I had the feeling for a while that Panini's Sutras act like a mathematical transform therefore they should be programmable. Is there already a computer program which applies these sutras to the dhatus and get the various forms out as the final product? Has anyone translated the sutras into formulas?
On another topic I have finally downloaded Sanskrit letters to my keyboard and would like to test here.
हबू गम् वलीणख
wow, I see now how it functions and it is hard work. The keyboard downloads unto the touchscreen and partially obstructs it so I cannot see what I write. Add that to the fact that the letters on the keyboard are not in alphabethical order so hard to find them. Anyway, it is a start.....
Hari Om, Ester
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:19 pm

Indrani wrote:Hari om

1. In the sutra 'Chutu', the tu has a big 'u', but the varga of 'tu' has a small 'u' , whereas 'chu' has the small 'u' as in the varga 'chu'. Which is correct ?? Please help

2. In Adhirnitudavaha, 'tu' is there, but 'da' is given instead of 'du'. In your example,'dukrin', you have taken 'du'. So, is it du or 'da' Please clarify.

3. Please post answers for week 8.

Thanks


Dear Indrani,

Hari Om!

1. In "चुटू", the reason why the ending ऊ is long is because when you put the two चु and टु together into a single word like we have done in the सूत्र, then they are together expressed in the dual form of the word (because there are two elements), which has a long ऊ at the end. So चु + टु = चुटू (kind of like if you were to say the word गुरु in the dual, it would become गुरू).

2. Similar reason as #1. The reason why the ending of "आदिर्ञिटुडवः" looks the way it does is because the sounds ञि, टु, and डु have been put into a single word, which is then expressed in the plural form of the word (because there are 3+ elements), which has a different ending. So ञि + टु + डु = ञिटुडवः (kind of like if were to say the word गुरु in the plural, it would become गुरवः).

3. I have posted the answers to week 8. Sorry for the delay!

All the best,

Varun
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:26 pm

Vasishta wrote:Dear Varun-ji,
I had the feeling for a while that Panini's Sutras act like a mathematical transform therefore they should be programmable. Is there already a computer program which applies these sutras to the dhatus and get the various forms out as the final product? Has anyone translated the sutras into formulas?
On another topic I have finally downloaded Sanskrit letters to my keyboard and would like to test here.
हबू गम् वलीणख
wow, I see now how it functions and it is hard work. The keyboard downloads unto the touchscreen and partially obstructs it so I cannot see what I write. Add that to the fact that the letters on the keyboard are not in alphabethical order so hard to find them. Anyway, it is a start.....
Hari Om, Ester


Dear Ester ji,

Hari Om!

Yes, there are lots of such programs that try to actually apply the सूत्रs (though they don't always -- or actually they almost never -- show you the actual सूत्रs). There are lots of Sanskrit parsers based on the सूत्रs. If anyone knows of any good ones, I would be grateful to hear of them! For now, I can offer this one -- http://sanskrit.inria.fr/

It is a great website. Check it out, explore! Experiment with the grammarian, lemmatizer, the reader, the parser, and the tagger. Let me know how it goes.

All the best,

Varun
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby jazirae » Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:58 am

VarunKhanna wrote:
Indrani wrote:Hari om

1. In the sutra 'Chutu', the tu has a big 'u', but the varga of 'tu' has a small 'u' , whereas 'chu' has the small 'u' as in the varga 'chu'. Which is correct ?? Please help

2. In Adhirnitudavaha, 'tu' is there, but 'da' is given instead of 'du'. In your example,'dukrin', you have taken 'du'. So, is it du or 'da' Please clarify.

3. Please post answers for week 8.

Thanks


Dear Indrani,

Hari Om!

1. In "चुटू", the reason why the ending ऊ is long is because when you put the two चु and टु together into a single word like we have done in the सूत्र, then they are together expressed in the dual form of the word (because there are two elements), which has a long ऊ at the end. So चु + टु = चुटू (kind of like if you were to say the word गुरु in the dual, it would become गुरू).

2. Similar reason as #1. The reason why the ending of "आदिर्ञिटुडवः" looks the way it does is because the sounds ञि, टु, and डु have been put into a single word, which is then expressed in the plural form of the word (because there are 3+ elements), which has a different ending. So ञि + टु + डु = ञिटुडवः (kind of like if were to say the word गुरु in the plural, it would become गुरवः).

3. I have posted the answers to week 8. Sorry for the delay!

All the best,

Varun


Dear Varunji!
I have the same question which I'm not finding the answer, how can we know if टुडु would mean the sounds टु and डु, or the vargas?
Thank you so much!

jazirae
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby ianr » Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:32 pm

Dear Varun

Just wanted to say how much I appreciated your insights at the end of this lesson. The idea that 'aum' is a sounding board for all the other sounds really brought home Sanskrit. And now I understand how it makes 'perfect' sense when it begins and ends the Gayatri Mantra, my favourite one:-)

Clearly, such insights in your lessons are pretty transcending. Keep them coming:-)

Ian
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby AryaR » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:28 pm

Hi Varun ji

I had two queries -

1. How do we know what all stuff gets "anuvarthita" to a particular sutra? Where is all that mentioned?

2. In the example mentioned for the 3rd satvadi karya, 'vad' was mentioned to be already known as 'idit'. But where is it said that 'vad' is 'idit'?

Hari Om!
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby aprasana » Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:20 am

Hari Om
I have a question about the example of

dhatu 710
why is ण् not dropped using the आदि चुटू सूत्र्
णिदि -> ण् इ द् इ -> आदि चुटू -> इदि ?
and then by इदितो नुम धतो -> इन्द्
instead the answer is निन्द्

dhatu 984 ईह
ई ह् अ -> हलन्त्यम -> ई ?
instead the answer is ईह्

i am 2 weeks behind on account of travel homework and hence the delayed question.
Thank you for an energized approach to language - even i am newly excited about the language and might get it; the dressing up of the Dhatu seems exciting.

-prasana
Last edited by aprasana on Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:24 pm

jazirae wrote:Dear Varunji!
I have the same question which I'm not finding the answer, how can we know if टुडु would mean the sounds टु and डु, or the vargas?
Thank you so much!

jazirae


Dear Jazirae ji,

Hari Om!

Firstly, since टु is already taken care of by the सूत्र "चुटू", it doesn't make sense for it to appear again. Secondly, since the sound टु is surrounded, in the सूत्र "आदिर्ञिटुडवः", by ञि and डु, which cannot be the वर्गs, we know that टु also cannot be the वर्ग. These are the 2 reasons why टु in the सूत्र "आदिर्ञिटुडवः" doesn't refer to the वर्ग.

Hope this clarifies!

Varun
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Re: Week 9 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:55 am

AryaR wrote:Hi Varun ji

I had two queries -

1. How do we know what all stuff gets "anuvarthita" to a particular sutra? Where is all that mentioned?

2. In the example mentioned for the 3rd satvadi karya, 'vad' was mentioned to be already known as 'idit'. But where is it said that 'vad' is 'idit'?

Hari Om!


Dear AryaR,

Hari Om!

1. There are two ways. The more technical way is to realize that each सूत्र is a full sentence, and can only be completed by certain words borrowed from the previous सूत्रs. To finish the sentence, we can clearly see which words are missing. The less technical and more practical way is to learn through परम्परा, which means through a lineage of teaching, like you are doing now.

2. वद् is इदित् because the original धातु was वदिँ, in which the इ gets the इत्-संज्ञा. Any धातु in which the इ gets the इत्-संज्ञा is called इदित्. Simple!

All the best,

Varun
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