Hari Om. Pranams

I would like to open a discussion on happiness -

1. Is it in external Objects?
2. If something gives happiness today would it always give happiness?
3. Does an object give same amount of happiness all the time?
4. What is the location of happiness?
5. What forumula has Pujya Gurudev given for happiness?

Hari Om

Happiness - Certainly it is not in external objects. An object which is a source of happiness for some one, is a source of pain for some other person. Some children enjoy eating fruits, some other hate eating fruits. One person derives happiness by buying a piece of land, where as the seller of the land derives happiness by selling the same land.

The very same object which i take to be a source of happiness to me, many a time becomes a source of unhappiness also. When I take a first sip of coffee it gives immense pleasure. Where as if I have to live only on coffee for the whole day, it becomes a painful experience.

We can not say that a particular time is a source of happiness. No one can say that every day at five o clock i am happy and i laugh and after that i become sorrowful.

Neither time, nor place, nor an object is the source of happiness and the whole external world consists of time, place and objects.
Gurudev defines happiness as the ratio of number of desires fulfilled to number of desires entertained. Instead of running for fulfilling the desires, if we learn to manage or handle the desires and do not come under their binding for fulfillment, we can be happy.

Happiness or fullness or Ananda is our very nature. That fullness is experientially manifest when the mind stops projecting and the mind is resolved. Happiness is measured by tranquility of one's mind. That is why some times the sky makes me happy, because at that time, my mind is tranquil and it accepts the sky as it is.

Pranams Padmajaji, your thoughtful questions are very helpful and i request you to come up with many such structured discussion points.

Hari Om. Pranams.

Just would like to share something regarding this subject that happened to me today. It was an early morning and I was getting out of an elevator. One lady casually asked me "How are you?" I smiled and said "Happy !" All of a sudden everybody that had gotten out of that elevators started looking at me in awe and disbelief. They started saying one after other.."Wow..I want to be happy !" "Yeah..I want to be happy too. I haven't been happy in such a long time" "I am happly may be a few moments on the weekend.."

I wasn't expecting getting myself surrounded for saying such a simple and small word like "Happy!". But for some reason that was a big deal to everybody. The lady asked me again "Hey..so tell us, what made you so happy?" I said "Nothing in particular really..just that it is such a beautiful morning outside, sun rays, green grass, birds chirping. I am feeling very fresh right now so I am happy." Then we all went our ways but I could hear the discussions about 'hapiness' continued amongst themselves in the background . So this subject "Happiness" is very important to everybody.

Let us take a technical view of the definition of happiness and see how that correlates with the fundamental basis of Happiness...

'Reducing Uncertainty' or 'Increasing Order' leads to Happiness.
In other words 'Happiness' is the feeling of increasing simplicity!

Happiness derives from the inhibition of those patterns that are considered unnecessary because of the advent of increasing simplicity. This explains why 'Exploring and Understanding' brings Happiness. Happiness is therefore the feeling of recognising patterns more effectively than in the immediate past. Or, intuitively, Happiness is the feeling of increasing unity or perfection.

Ultimate perfection is achieved when highest level of self-actualisation occurs. Intuitively this means identification (union) with the 'Power of the Self' - exploring and understanding the true nature of SELF or acquiring 'Self Knowledge'. It can never be obtained from outward objects which are, by the very nature of materiality, transient and bound by space-time-causation!

Hari Om Satishji. Pranams.

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

This statement "'Happiness' is the feeling of increasing simplicity!" is very true and profound. I didn't quite understand what you mean by "Happiness is therefore the feeling of recognising patterns more effectively than in the immediate past". Will appreciate if you shed some light on that. The last part of your post is a very good reminder for me - "It can never be obtained from outward objects which are, by the very nature of materiality, transient and bound by space-time-causation!" Thank You !

Hari Aum! Padmajaji,

Here is an explanation:

The functioning of human perception is through a process of hierarchical integration of input stimuli that comes in through the senses. Recent findings of science prove that there are multiple levels of such synthesis that take place in the neo-cortex of human beings. From very chaotic and flickering inputs, a very highly semantic and meaningful picture is made making us intelligently perform in this world. So at every level of the perceptive mechanism some ‘order’ is brought about by some sort of integration of input stimuli. These are ‘patterns’. It is hypothesised that the simplification of ‘patterns’ through hierarchical integration is what makes intelligence possible in human beings. This is the reason why when we ‘explore’ and ‘understand’ we feel happy. When ‘Exploring the unknown’ we are dealing with patterns in the brain that are disorganised. And, when we finally start ‘understanding’, the patterns are getting organised. That is why the statement "Happiness is therefore the feeling of recognising patterns more effectively than in the immediate past"

So the very design of the brain and the biological way it derives meaning, and therefore order, in the way the world functions is one of ‘reducing uncertainty’ or ‘increasing order’ or in ‘increasing simplicity’.

When things (objects and events) keep changing this is not possible. Hence it is that our philosophies and our fore-fathers meditatively concluded that TRUE happiness can only be derived from focussing on the PERMANENT.

Hope this helps. We can discuss more if required.

Hari Om Satishji and Padmajaji. Thank you for bringing out the subtle points related to happiness. The Patterns / Order aspect brought out by Satishji is thought provoking. I would like to share what I learnt from Swami Dayanandaji’s discourse.

All the Patterns or Laws or Orders are manifestation of one Maha Order, known as Isvara. In the awareness of Isvara one can relax. One can trust the order, because that order is Infallible.

The Infallible is very much present in the order of Anatomy, in the order of Physiology, in the order of Biology, in the order of Psychology, in the order of Epistemology, in the order of Dharma and in everything. So we are never away from Isvara either in time or in space.

That is why it is called Order or Pattern, which is why we can generalize it and understand it. We can conform to and make use of the orders/laws with the knowledge. We can get into a proper scheme of things without rubbing anything. We can be more objective by the awareness of Isvara as a Maha Order and be relaxed and Happy in that order.

Bagavan says in Chapter 14, verse 24,

Brahmano hi pratisthaham,amrtasyavyayasya ca
Sasvatasya ca dharmasya,sukhasyaikantikasya ca

"I am indeed the basis of the changeless immortal Brahman, the eternal dharma and unconditional aananda".

Pranams

Hari OM.

A small correction. The verse quoted in the previous post is verse 27 and not 24.

The dependence on external objects for our happiness is another aspect that was brought out nicely. Samsari is one on whom the external objects have strong hold -the attachments that bind one down to the phenomenal world.

We want wealth for our security but after acquiring wealth we are worried about the security of the wealth. This is true for all things that we depend on. Having a house or wealth etc is not a problem but if they have hold on us we become, instead of masters of the house, slaves of the house.

Hence Manu says

sarvam paravasham duHkham sarvam aatmavasham sukham|
etat vidhyaat samaasena lakshaNam sukhaduHkayoH|

Dependence anything outside for our happiness (Reflected Ananda) ultimately result in suffering or samsaara while understanding one’s nature is Ananda is the true independence and happiness.

Pranams

Hari OM

Shivayah - The Infallibale Maha Order / Law / Pattern

Namah - Understanding, Appreciating,Accepting, Relaxing and Surrendering unto the Maha Order

Om Namah Shivayah

Pranams

Hari Aum!

Muruganji's summary:
Quote: All the Patterns or Laws or Orders are manifestation of one Maha Order, known as Isvara. In the awareness of Isvara one can relax. One can trust the order, because that order is Infallible.

The Infallible is very much present in the order of Anatomy, in the order of Physiology, in the order of Biology, in the order of Psychology, in the order of Epistemology, in the order of Dharma and in everything. So we are never away from Isvara either in time or in space. :Unquote

How very true!
I am reminded of Swami Vivekananda's most profound statement that constantly keep on acquring more and more depth, meaning and beauty:
He proclaimed: "The UNIVERSE is the ABSOLUTE seen through the screen of Space Time and Causation"

Hari OM. Pranams.

Wow..looks like this is turning into some highly complex technical discussion.

Satishji, if I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that - "through very chaotic and flickering inputs neo-cortex of human beings derives some ‘order’ ".

Is this "order" really there in chaotic and flickering inputs? or it is imagined by neo-cortex of human beings ?

Hari Aum! Padmaji,

Let me try and explain:
It is the nature of the sense apparatus that makes the inputs chaotic/flickering. There is order in the physical world but only relative (to time and space).

Let me illustrate this:
Take the case of visual perception. The eye captures a picture during every saccade. Human eye typically has 3 saccades per second. So what enter the first layer of the neo-cortex (or the input for the lowest layer of the neo-cortex, or the lowest stage of the neo-cortical algorithm) are 3 pictures per second. Each saccade may fix on the object at different points. Assuming one is looking at the face of a person; the eye will capture spots on different parts of the face – (say) first on the cheek, then on the nose, then on the lips, then on the nose again, then on the eye and so on. So if our perceptive mechanism were limited to just this stage, we would have had a chaotic life! Instead we have several hierarchical layers of perceptive integration that happens within the neo-cortex. At the next level, the images from the saccades are integrated to form features on the face. Then at the next level the features are integrated to form the object ‘face’. Then comes semantic interpretations, where we recognise the face. Still at a higher level ‘spatial’ integration happens whereby we are able to recognise the face in any position or partial exposure (and also combined with multi-sensory integration). On top of this is time integration, where we are able to recognise the same face even after days, months or years. Thus we are able to bring order to an otherwise fluctuating set of inputs. (The same goes with all sensory apparatus and inputs but with some differences)

Now, let us take a look at what happens if we project it further and on to a transcendental plane (higher spiritual level). A transcendental integration can achieve PERMANENCE in what we see. We see the ATMAN in all things that we perceive!

Just as various levels of conscious perception integrates stimuli and conjoins it with knowledge and experience to produce a sense of material stability in what we physically experience, a higher consciousness would enable us to transcend the pluralistic material phenomena and make us understand the singularity. This should then indicate the state of Bliss (Absolute Happiness).

PranAms.

Dear Satishji,
Hari Om. Pranams.

I found your analysis of sense perception excellent and helpful. However last two paragraphs of your post do not conform to basic Advaita teachings. Self is "Avangmanasagochara". It is not an "object of preception". Advaita says "yat drshyam tat jaDam, yat jaDam tat vikAri...". That which is "seen"(meaning preceived) is inert. Inert is subject to change. That which changes is subject to destruction. That which is subject to destruction is not Truth. So "permanence" or ATMAN is not a perception or "understanding" of any kind. It is our state of "being" which we can only know by going beyond all perceptions, emotions and intellection. Just like dream food cannot satiate our waking hunger, what applies at the physical plane of perception is not valid on the plane of the Self. You might want to study more Vedanta from traditional standpoint then you will understand this basic position of Advaita.

Dear Padmaji,

You are absolutely right. I will explain what I was arriving at - but please excuse me for a few days as I am travelling and have access to net only very rarely.

Dear Padmaji,

Hari Aum!

For the steadfast followers of a system of philosophy and for those who take it for granted it may not be difficult to accept that “It is our state of "being" which we can only know by going beyond all perceptions, emotions and intellection. Just like dream food cannot satiate our waking hunger, what applies at the physical plane of perception is not valid on the plane of the Self”. But there is a vast amount of younger generation and those who try and project the understanding before going in for an ‘experience’ – who need to be motivated to understand the philosophy as something ‘real’ and plausible and also required to get a universal view. This intellectual curiosity is what needs to be satisfied. I believe that we normally tend to ‘not’ address such issues. My ‘projected’ analysis of the rationale of ‘obtaining bliss’ was aimed at that and not literally as in “We see the ATMAN in all things that we perceive”.

There is this hypothetical scenario of someone sitting in a 3D space of a room and watching the story that unfolds on a 2D LCD screen of his TV. Now, assuming the characters of the story were intelligent and were able to communicate with each other in their world (the LCD plane); they would still not be able to conjure up the world outside which is the 3D space/room. Even if the person watching the show touches the character they still will not be able to perceive that touch. They live within those limited ‘domain’. Its creator, the man outside, is still watching, and is in full control.

This is exactly what a rational mind would try and do, to project the world beyond the 4D world of ‘Space-Time-Causation’ and be convinced that there could be a realm of the ‘SELF’. Even science has now started realising that there exist worlds of dimensions beyond the limits of our perception.

My rationale of discussing the ‘bliss’ state was only to “project” such a realm.
I constantly face ‘objections’ from non-believers on the principles that we advocate and much of these I have been able to satisfy or deflate with explanations that can be ‘scientifically’ structured. Younger minds have thereby started taking interest in these philosophies, which I consider is what is required in this world to make it a better place to live. That is my motivation.


PranAms,

Hari OM. Pranams Satishji.

Thanks for the clarification. I understand your motivation and noble desire to get younger minds to take interest in Advaita. However passing this knowledge in pure form is equally important, in my opinion. Traditional Vedanta does cater to the problems you mentioned. Most importantly, it does so, without distorting the Truth. Pujya Gurudev has done a great job is presenting scripture in the current day context. Adhyarop and Apavad Prakriya is all about starting from our level of understanding and then taking us beyond.

Truth is not extended enhanced dimension. Let's take your hypothetical example of 2D and 3D. Characters in 2D LCD plane do not need to conjure up the 3D space/room outside, in order to know the Truth. They just need to understand 'space' is their true nature. LCD Screen, all characters in story, 3D room and someone sitting in that 3D room, all these are mithya(superimpositions on space). Space is the Truth. That space is one. How to understand space is one? Example can be, if a parked car moves to another town it doesn't carry space with it. Car moves "in space" because space is One. Every particle of that car is space if analyzed deeper. That is why car can move in space. Space pervades Car, through and through. Space pervades all parts of that car and it pervades display on its CD player also. A part of a car doesn't need to know whole car to know "it is space". A part of a car doesn't need to look outside somewhere to know "it is space". Similarly our body, organs of perception, perceptions and also this whole world is superimposed on Truth. None of that is Truth. So, one doesn't need to know any different dimension to know the Truth. One has to drop knowing in terms of 'dimensions'. Truth is availble to us right here right now once we drop 'perceptions' and 'objectifications' because Truth is our very own 'being'.

In Ocean there are waves. If a wave wants to know its true nature, she does not need to know the ocean. Wave needs to know it's nature to be "water". whole Ocean is nothing but water. That Water is One. There is no such thing as small water and big water. Water is water. Bubbles, waves, ocean, merging rivers all that is water. Wave will never know water if she keeps imagining water to be something bigger or vast or different in size. When wave stops thinking in terms of 'dimensions', when she gives up thinking in terms of 'perceptions' then she will recognize at once that she is water. For water, there is no wave and no such thing as ocean. It is water alone, one without a second. In ignorance(thinking in terms of dimensions and perception) plurality is seen and that plurality is mithya.

There are many such beautiful examples in traditional Vedanta. The most powerful being "Dream". A man(waker) sees a dream. He experiences dream as one character of that dream(dreamer). He has fear and worries due to dream experience. Trying to know everything in dream or having some mystical dream experience will not make him understand that he is really a waker. Guru and Scripture like dream lion, roar loud in dream, "Uttishta, Jagrat..." and that wakes the man and he understands whole dream was mithya and he was a waker all along.

This is a good example that you can use. You can bring in their questions for us to discuss and we can find out examples from traditional vedanta for explaining them. That will make us reflect also. Thank you very much for making me reflect !

Hari OM

Excellent ananlysis and thought provoking postings with apt examples.
Pranams

Hari Aum!

Yes, indeed, “Truth is not extended enhanced dimension” (btw, my allusion to dimension was not to the physical sizes, but to the spatial and temporal ones of this universe). “Truth is our very own 'being'”. And, “thinking in terms of dimensions and perception” is indeed “ignorance” because the very nature of materiality as we know it – of the 4 dimensions (of space and time) and the characteristics of it – drives our perception and hence has to be ‘unreal’. I completely agree with Padmaji on these points. (The 2D LCD, 3D scenario seems to have been misapprehended. Let us leave that out [*]).

Traditional Vedanta, from the times of Adi Sankara, and later Swami Vivekananda have all been summarised and taken to a new dimension (sorry the dimension here is something totally different) in the modern world by Pujya Gurudev, who I have had the greatest privilege to get to hear from childhood. Swami Vivekananda too had brought out the traditional Vedantic concepts in terms that were truly ahead of scientific discoveries and had raised much research and reflection in the scientific community of those times. The last 10-20 years have seen tremendous amount of research and the unfolding of ‘knowledge’ in many ‘scientific’ areas as in Psychology (medical and philosophical), studies in Body-Mind duality, Computational Intelligence (I too played with it), Quantum Physics, Cognitive Sciences, Management systems and in Consciousness studies. A serious and curious look at those results would immediately tell you that what the “Spiritualists” were expounding from ages was nothing but what the “Scientists” are currently unravelling. The ‘Truth’ has to be ONE.

The sad plight of the modern day (including the 21st century) still is that the Scientists and Spiritualists do not see eye-to-eye and stick to their guns. I personally think that this has to change massively; not in stray cases, here and there, where the members from both the camps come together. It is also worth noting here that even among various schools of spiritual thinking this dissonance persist; even when everyone talks of a ‘unifying power’.

Since we started off on the subject of ‘Happiness’ – may be I would like to conclude on this saying that “Happiness” as an emotion itself is ‘material’ and in this physical world achieving that is what is to be emphasised. Ultimate happiness, we all agree is the experience of ABSOLUTE BLISS which needs us to transcend ‘dimensions and perceptions’. But in this physical world, where we live and make heaven or hell, true happiness and fulfilment may accrue to us only when a vast majority of humanity shuns all sorts of ‘extremism’ and try to live a life of ‘compassion and love’, ‘righteousness and duties’, ‘peace and harmony in relations’ and with a complete attitude of ‘unselfishness’ – integrating all sorts of ‘knowledge’, spiritual and secular.

Thank you Padmaji, Muruganji and others for helping me reflect on some of the unifying concepts of Science and Spirituality, especially from a traditional Vedantic, Spiritual, perspective.

([*] There is also a quantum physical aspect of the concept of the ONE Self that pervades everywhere. Again, going into that may not be appropriate for this forum)

PranAms,

Satish.

Hari Om. Pranams Satishji,

Just like Consemtic surgeons are not against doctors who treat physical and mental ailments, Science is not against Vedanta and vice versa. Their focus is different and they cater to different patients. Science is focused on 'experienced and experiencing' (world) and Vedanta is focused on 'experiencer' (I).(All this is discussed in Fundamental E Vedanta Course in detail) Science is mainly focused on Waking state and recently dream state, Vedanta takes into account all 3 states of experiences. Science keeps changing. Vedanta has remained applicable to current day as it was in ancient times because basic problems of fear, desires, worry, sorrow has remained the same. They don't change. Vedanta, though focused on 'experiencer'(Jiva), takes into account 'experienced and experiencing'(Jagat) and also the creator(Ishvar). It takes into account 'Experiencer' as well as 'Knower'. Science leaves out Jiva and Ishvara altogeher. Cosmetic surgeon might realize some day that the true beauty radiates though healthy body and mind. Someday science will understand that they can't leave out 'experiencer' from the equation and research is heading that way. Many of Michio Kaku's TV programs talk about those things.

Mere outward fixing cannot remove sorrows because those problems are faced by 'experiencer' (subject), so work needs to be done on subject (not just object) that is what Vedanta does.

I can't talk for everyone else. All I know is, I am very hungry. My Guru has served this healthy and nutritious meal called Vedanta in front of me. Without looking here and there, I am focused on eating, right now. I am going to keep eating till I am full. I will worry about what they are serving in other restaurants after I am done eating.