Hari OM

Thank you all for the interesting discussions on the topic of “Thinking” process. I could learn a lot from your discussions. Let me share what I have read about “Thinking” (which is nothing but an action),

There are four types or rather stages of thinking.

Impulsive --- Mechanical ---- Deliberate--- Spontaneous

Impulsive – Basic stage - just like that whatever comes to our mind at that point of time, merely based on personal likes and dislikes only – Only Manas ( mind) is involved.

Mechanical – Based on our vasanas, based on our own past experiences, habits etc, little bit of analysis is added at this stage to impulsive thinking – predominantly manas ( mind), little bit of buddhi (intellect) is involved.

Deliberate – A good amount of deliberation takes place, based on the knowledge of Dharma and Adharma, based on the scriptural teachings, based on right values – More discrimination is used at this stage by the well matured intellect- Budhi take over the reign with little role for manas

Spontaneous – Most Advanced stage - Deliberate thinking comes spontaneously due to maturity of the subtle intellect, which is very well established in Dharma – Wise people, Gnanis with great Wisdom have this ability.

Pranams

Hari OM. Pranams.

Thanks Muruganji for your thoughtful and enlightening posts. My thoughts on questions.

1. Each one of us forms opinions based on our experiences. Same situation can create different reactions in different individuals based on their nature so experiences are very relative to each individual. At any point in time we can't say that I have experienced everything so our individual opinion is a 'changing entity'. While working with such moving set of facts, can we use our individual experience/opinion to arrive at Truth? If not, then what can we use to arrive at Truth?

Arjuna had lot of experience and his opinions were based on sound scriptural injunctions which say 'one should not kill' let alone killing Guru and Grand father. Bhagvan was giving advice but Arjuna was in no state of taking it because he had more faith in his opinion than Lord's words. We might very well get into a situation where we have more faith in our opinions than Guru's words so it is important to understand limitations of our experience based opinions and means of gaining knowledge.

We can't arrive at Truth based on experience and opinion because Truth is beyond senses, mind and intellect. Kena upanishad says Truth is eye of an eye, ear of an ear, mind of the mind (Shrotrasya shrotram manaso mano yad). Truth is that due to which our sense organs, mind and intellect function. We always "know" things as something "other than ourself". Truth cannot be known like that (just like we can't see our eye with our eye) so it can't be experience and it can't be opinion. Truth is I (Self). The Praman or means to know 'Truth' is Shabda Praman or Verbal Testimony. It is 'Apta Vakya' (Statement from a trust-worthy source or person). Most of our learning happens through Verbal Testimony. When our parents tell us 'this is yellow' we accept it. In school we learn many things from books and teachers, we trust that source so we accept what is taught to us and learn. Similarly, for knowing Truth, Shastra (Vedanta) and Guru Vakya are the Praman. The problem is when it comes to Dharma and Moksha we either don't have similar faith in source of knowledge, knowledge that source is teaching, or we refuse to accept due to our contrary experiences (Viparita bhavana).

Lord Krishna had shown leelas that manifested his godhood as a child and Arjuna chose him over whole army so obviously Arjuna knew the greatness and wisdom of Lord Krishna. However he was not ready to take advice of Krishna at that time. This shows that it was Arjuna's ego that was the problem. He felt his individual opinion was superior to Apta Vakya (Lord's words). If we go to school but use our opinions to accept or reject what teacher is teaching, then we will not learn. Only if we trusted our teacher completely then only we learn. Surrendering individual opinions doesn't mean 'not doubting'. Doubts will come, but they are resolved by applying logic and experiences (yukti and anubhuti) with a goal 'to understand' what teacher is saying. "What is wrong in my current way of thinking that I am not able to accept what my teacher says? " This is how inquiry is conducted. There has to be inherent faith in Guru's words. When we do inquiry in attitude of surrender, faith and devotion, we discover many impurities of Iness, Myness, desires within us that stop us from understanding what Guru say. By inquiry these impurities gets washed. Truth is discovered within when the veil of impurities lifts.

2. Everybody thinks differently. What is 'Right Thinking' ? Is there any relationship between 'Individual Opinion' and 'Right Thinking'?

Thinking which is undertaken by giving up all dealings involving the ideas of "I' and "mine" and renouncing all desires is called 'Right Thinking'. If an individuals intellect is rooted in 'total intellect', then that persons thinking is called 'right thinking'. On the other hand, if thought arises from personal desires and ego, it is 'wrong thinking'. When we identify with a larger cause and ultimately to the Lord, will of the supreme manifests.

We might know lots of good things, but 'when to apply what' that we will know only when we are thinking right. Arjuna was rooted in 'individuality' so he was seeing things in wrong light. If he was rooted in 'totality' he would have seen clear picture. If we don't have 'Right Thinking' we should surrender to Guru and seek His advice. Arjuna came to senses and ultimately surrendered after these verses.

Hari Om , Pranam to all devotees

Verse 4 to 6
Arjuna having identified himself as the doer and enjoyer of his actions since long time – continues to bring in series of argument to seek the support and approval of his dear friend Lord Krishna. Here Arjuna acting on the plane of small I (individuality), having convinced himself with his decision not to fight – is still trying to prove that his decision was the best and supports them with arguments such as how shall I in battle fight with arrows, against Bhishma and Drona, who are fit to be worshipped – Better it is, indeed, in this world to eat even the bread of 'beggary' than to slay the most noble of teachers – and lastly he says he cant even decide which will be better, that we should conquer them or that they should conquer us – thus he reaches a stage where the hysteria has attacked his intellectual composure.
These stanzas explain how horrible / pitiable is Arjuna’s condition, the sentiments have totally clouded the intellect. Gurudevji says the indiscriminative individual will be convinced with Arjuna’s arguments but not the discriminative one. His condition needs Lord’s mercy, pity and guidance urgently at this stage which he seeks in the last stanza – expresses genuinely that he is totally confused and not able to decide whether he should win or loose the war.
The emotions and sentiments can play such a terrific role in ones life which may even question the existence of intellect faculty. In many of the TV channel serials the emotions are very effectively used as a marketing tool to fool the public and enslave them.

Hari Om
Abhay

Hari Om. Pranam to all.

Muruganji and Padmajaji, excellent posts indeed
Thank you very much.

Regards

Uma

Hari Om. Pranams to All.

Let's now study next 3 verses. These are the verses of Arjuna's total surrender to the Lord. For verse assignments, can you please post the verse, word meaning, verse meaning and brief summary of Pujya Gurudev's commentary.

Abhayji, Vanaja Amma - Do you have HGRR book? Abhayji, I have assigned HGRR Question to you, if you don't have the book please let me know.

Thank You.

Verse 7 - Muruganji
Verse 8 - Umaji
Verse 9 - Vanaja Amma

Holy Gita Ready Reference

Terms and Definitions: Q. 3, Q.4 (page 25) - Abhayji
Thoughts and Concepts: Q. 4 (page 29) - Padmaja

Verse for memorization - Verse 7 - All

Hari Om Padmajaji,

No, I do not have Holy Geeta Ready Reference book. I have Gurudev's Holy Geeta in Malayalam language and also English chapter by chapter text of chapter I, II & III.
Regards,
Vanaja

Hari OM

Verse 7:

kaarpanyadosopahatasvabhaavah,
prcchaami tvam dharmasammudhacetaah
yacchreyah syaanniscitam bruhi tanme
sisyasteham saadhi maam tvaam prapannam

kaarpanyadosopahatasvabhaavah – With the mind over powered by misery
dharmasammudhacetaah – and with the intellect completely deluded regarding dharma
tvam prcchaami – I ask you
bruhi tat – Tell (me) that
yat syat – which is
niscitam sreyah me – definitely good for me
aham te sisyah – I am Your disciple
saadhi maam – Teach me
prapannam tvaam- who have surrendered to You

My heart is overpowered by the taint of pity; my mind is confused as to duty. I ask Thee. Tell me decisively what is good for me. I am thy disciple. Instruct me, who have taken refuge in Thee.

In this stanza, when Arjuna had completely realized the helpless impotency in himself to come to any decision, he surrenders totally to Krishna. He, in his own words, admits the psychological shattering felt and lived by him in his bosom. He has instinctively diagnosed, correctly, even the cause of it to be “ an uncontrollable amount of overwhelming pity”.

Arjuna confesses that his intellect ( cheats) has gone behind a cloud of confusions regarding what is Dharma and Adharma are at that moment for him.

Arjuna indicates that he is quite ready to follow all the instructions of the Lord and maintain perfect faith in the wisdom of his Divine Charioteer.

Pranams

Hari Om Padmajaji

I dont have a copy of HGRR book, have only Holy Geeta commetry by Pujya Gurudev in Marathi.

Hari Om

Abhay

Hari OM. Pranams to All.

Holy Gita Ready Reference

Terms and Definitions:

Q.3 What does the term 'Gudakesha' mean?
'Conqueror of sleep' or 'knotted-haired'. (2.9)

Q.4 What does the appellation 'Govinda' mean?
Winner of the world. (2.9)

Thoughts and Concepts:

Q.4 In which verse of the second chapter do we find Arjuna explicitly surrendering to Shri Krishna?

कार्पण्यदोषोपहतस्वभावः
पृच्छामि त्वां धर्मसंमूढचेताः ।
यच्छ्रेयः स्यान्निश्चितं ब्रूहि तन्मे
शिष्यस्तेऽहं शाधि मां त्वां प्रपन्नम् ।। (७)

kaarpanyadosopahatasvabhaavah,
prcchaami tvam dharmasammudhacetaah
yacchreyah syaanniscitam bruhi tanme
sisyasteham saadhi maam tvaam prapannam

My heart is overpowered by the taint of pity; my mind is confused as to duty. I ask Thee. Tell me decisively what is good for me. I am thy disciple. Instruct me, who have taken refuge in Thee.

Arjuna admits the psychological shattering felt and lived by him in the core of his being. He has instinctively diagnosed his condition correctly, even the cause of it to be 'an uncontrollable amount of overwhelming pity'. Of course, Arjuna does not realise that it is his misplaced compassion; but, whatever it be, the patient is now under the mental stress of extreme confusion and bewilderment. In this stanza, when Arjuna has completely realised the helpless impotency in himself to come to any decision, he surrenders totally to Lord Krsna. (2.7)

Hari Om

Wish to remind you all about Sugriva-Rama Sakhya and Sudama-Krishna Sakhya on this Friendship Day and wish you all a Happy Friendship Day.

Pranams,
Vanaja

Hari OM

Thank you Vanajaji for your kind wishes and thoughtful reminder on great friendships shown in our scriptures. I offer every one my best wishes and regards on this Friendship day.

Pranams

Hari Om. Pranams.

Umaji, Vanaja Amma awaiting for you to post verses. Thanks.

Hari Om. Pranam to all.

Verse 8 :

Na hi prapashyaami mamaapamnudyaad
Yac chokam ucchosanam indriyanam
Avaapya bhumaavasapatnamruddham
Raajyam suraanaamapi chaadhipatyam ||8||

Nahi – not, prapashyaami – I see, mama – may, apanudyaat – would remove, yat – that , shokam – grief, ucchoshaNam – dried up, indriyanam – of my senses, avaapya – having obtained, bhumou – on the earth, asapatnam – unrivalled, ruddham – prosperous, raajyam – dominion, suraanaam – over the Gods, api- - even, cha – and, adhipatyam – lordship

I do not see that it would remove this sorrow that burns up my senses, even if I should attain prosperous and unrivalled dominion on earth or even lordship over the Gods.

Here, Arjuna is indicating to Krishna the urgency for guidance because his mental sorrow is affecting even his sense organs. His mental sorrow is not for acquisition and possession of any sensuous object in the outer world, but he himself says that even an empire over the earth , even a lordship over the Gods, won’t be able to wipe off his sense of sorrow.

Here Arjuna is an example of disciple who is seeking life of cultural perfection, Godly and divine, with detachment from sensuous urges. His urgency shows his burning aspiration for liberation. What he needs is right discrimination ( viveka ) which will be given by Lord Krishna throughout this Geeta henceforth.

Padmajaji, I tried to get the verse in Sanskrit through G mail, but words are so difficult, I couldn't succeed. So instead of giving improper verse in Sanskrit, have posted in english itself. Sorry about that.

Regards

Uma

Hari Om. Pranams to All.

Vanaja amma, I am posting this on your behalf. Hope you are OK with it.

Verse 9:

संजय उवाच :

एवमुक्त्वा हृषीकेशं गुडाकेशः परन्तपः ।
न योत्स्य इति गोविन्दमुक्त्वा तूष्णीं बभूव ह ॥९॥

evam uktva hrishikesham gudakesha paramtapah
na yotsya iti govindam uktva tushnim babhuva ha

Evam - thus, uktva - having spoken, hrishikesham - to Hrishikesha (master of the senses), Gudakeshah - the conqueror of sleep, parantapah - destroyer of foes, na yotsya - I will not fight, iti - thus, govindam - to govinda, uktva - having said, tushnim - silent, babhuva - became, ha -certainly

Sanjaya said :-
Having spoken thus to Hrishikesha, Gudakesha, destroyer of foes, said to Govinda “I will not fight” and became silent. (9)

This stanza and the following together constitute the running commentary of Sanjaya. After surrendering himself to Krishna, seeking the Lord's guidance, Arjuna declared that the Pandavas shall not fight and became silent and quiet. 'Tushnim bhava' is an attitude of mental and physical quietness of a stunned individual. It is similar to total blackout that one feels at the sudden impact of the news of a great tragedy. Sanjaya uses wealth of details to indicate that Lord Krishna was the right guide to surrender to as 'Lord of the senses' and 'the one who has regained the whole world' with a hope that blind King Dhritarashtra will call back armies from the field of Kurukshetra.

Hari Om. Pranams.

Here are the Verses for our discussion. Please post your thoughts, your study notes, reflections on these verses. Thanks.

Offering this garland of verses to you O Krishna with Love from all of us...please help us in our studies.
=============================================================================
Verse 7:

कार्पण्यदोषोपहतस्वभावः
पृच्छामि त्वां धर्मसंमूढचेताः ।
यच्छ्रेयः स्यान्निश्चितं ब्रूहि तन्मे
शिष्यस्तेऽहं शाधि मां त्वां प्रपन्नम् ।। ७ ।।

kaarpanyadosopahatasvabhaavah,
prcchaami tvam dharmasammudhacetaah
yacchreyah syaanniscitam bruhi tanme
sisyasteham saadhi maam tvaam prapannam

kaarpanyadosopahatasvabhaavah – With the mind over powered by misery
dharmasammudhacetaah – and with the intellect completely deluded regarding dharma
tvam prcchaami – I ask you
bruhi tat – Tell (me) that
yat syat – which is
niscitam sreyah me – definitely good for me
aham te sisyah – I am Your disciple
saadhi maam – Teach me
prapannam tvaam- who have surrendered to You

My heart is overpowered by the taint of pity; my mind is confused as to duty. I ask Thee. Tell me decisively what is good for me. I am thy disciple. Instruct me, who have taken refuge in Thee.

In this stanza, when Arjuna had completely realized the helpless impotency in himself to come to any decision, he surrenders totally to Krishna. He, in his own words, admits the psychological shattering felt and lived by him in his bosom. He has instinctively diagnosed, correctly, even the cause of it to be “ an uncontrollable amount of overwhelming pity”.

Arjuna confesses that his intellect ( cheats) has gone behind a cloud of confusions regarding what is Dharma and Adharma are at that moment for him.

Arjuna indicates that he is quite ready to follow all the instructions of the Lord and maintain perfect faith in the wisdom of his Divine Charioteer.

Verse 8 :

न हि प्रपश्यामि ममापनुद्याद -
यच्छोकमुच्छोषणमिन्द्रियाणां ।
अवाप्यभूमावसपत्नमृद्धं
राज्यं सुराणामपि चाधिपत्यम् ।। ८ ।।

Na hi prapashyaami mamaapamnudyaad
Yac chokam ucchosanam indriyanam
Avaapya bhumaavasapatnamruddham
Raajyam suraanaamapi chaadhipatyam ||8||

Nahi – not, prapashyaami – I see, mama – may, apanudyaat – would remove, yat – that , shokam – grief, ucchoshaNam – dried up, indriyanam – of my senses, avaapya – having obtained, bhumou – on the earth, asapatnam – unrivalled, ruddham – prosperous, raajyam – dominion, suraanaam – over the Gods, api- - even, cha – and, adhipatyam – lordship

I do not see that it would remove this sorrow that burns up my senses, even if I should attain prosperous and unrivalled dominion on earth or even lordship over the Gods.

Here, Arjuna is indicating to Krishna the urgency for guidance because his mental sorrow is affecting even his sense organs. His mental sorrow is not for acquisition and possession of any sensuous object in the outer world, but he himself says that even an empire over the earth , even a lordship over the Gods, won’t be able to wipe off his sense of sorrow.

Here Arjuna is an example of disciple who is seeking life of cultural perfection, Godly and divine, with detachment from sensuous urges. His urgency shows his burning aspiration for liberation. What he needs is right discrimination ( viveka ) which will be given by Lord Krishna throughout this Geeta henceforth.

Verse 9:

संजय उवाच :

एवमुक्त्वा हृषीकेशं गुडाकेशः परन्तपः ।
न योत्स्य इति गोविन्दमुक्त्वा तूष्णीं बभूव ह ॥९॥

evam uktva hrishikesham gudakesha paramtapah
na yotsya iti govindam uktva tushnim babhuva ha

Evam - thus, uktva - having spoken, hrishikesham - to Hrishikesha (master of the senses), Gudakeshah - the conqueror of sleep, parantapah - destroyer of foes, na yotsya - I will not fight, iti - thus, govindam - to govinda, uktva - having said, tushnim - silent, babhuva - became, ha -certainly

Sanjaya said :-
Having spoken thus to Hrishikesha, Gudakesha, destroyer of foes, said to Govinda “I will not fight” and became silent. (9)

This stanza and the following together constitute the running commentary of Sanjaya. After surrendering himself to Krishna, seeking the Lord's guidance, Arjuna declared that the Pandavas shall not fight and became silent and quiet. 'Tushnim bhava' is an attitude of mental and physical quietness of a stunned individual. It is similar to total blackout that one feels at the sudden impact of the news of a great tragedy. Sanjaya uses wealth of details to indicate that Lord Krishna was the right guide to surrender to as 'Lord of the senses' and 'the one who has regained the whole world' with a hope that blind King Dhritarashtra will call back armies from the field of Kurukshetra.

Holy Gita Ready Reference

Terms and Definitions:

Q.3 What does the term 'Gudakesha' mean?
'Conqueror of sleep' or 'knotted-haired'. (2.9)

Q.4 What does the appellation 'Govinda' mean?
Winner of the world. (2.9)

Thoughts and Concepts:

Q.4 In which verse of the second chapter do we find Arjuna explicitly surrendering to Shri Krishna?

कार्पण्यदोषोपहतस्वभावः
पृच्छामि त्वां धर्मसंमूढचेताः ।
यच्छ्रेयः स्यान्निश्चितं ब्रूहि तन्मे
शिष्यस्तेऽहं शाधि मां त्वां प्रपन्नम् ।। (७)

kaarpanyadosopahatasvabhaavah,
prcchaami tvam dharmasammudhacetaah
yacchreyah syaanniscitam bruhi tanme
sisyasteham saadhi maam tvaam prapannam

My heart is overpowered by the taint of pity; my mind is confused as to duty. I ask Thee. Tell me decisively what is good for me. I am thy disciple. Instruct me, who have taken refuge in Thee.

Arjuna admits the psychological shattering felt and lived by him in the core of his being. He has instinctively diagnosed his condition correctly, even the cause of it to be 'an uncontrollable amount of overwhelming pity'. Of course, Arjuna does not realise that it is his misplaced compassion; but, whatever it be, the patient is now under the mental stress of extreme confusion and bewilderment. In this stanza, when Arjuna has completely realised the helpless impotency in himself to come to any decision, he surrenders totally to Lord Krsna. (2.7)

Hari OM. Prostrations at the feet of Pujya Gurudev Swami Chinmayanandaji, on Mahasamadhi day.

Mahasamadhi Day 2010 Message
from
Pujya Guruji Swami Tejomayananda

The essence of all sadhana is to lift the mind and reach the state that is the nature of the Self. In the fire of Truth, let the mind become no-mind. Everything else - practices, paths, instructions - all are mere details!

Our Pujya Gurudev's grace and blessings are a living presence and an infalliable certainity for each and every one of us. The ultimate Goal is to experience this Bliss of Realisation.

Hari Om. Pranams to All ....

One Announcement -

I will be away for couple of weeks (Aug 7th - Aug 20th) attending Dharma Sevak Course under guidance of and in the blessed company of Pujya Guruji Swami Tejomayanandaji. Shri Muruganji has graciously accepted to co-ordinate Gita study group and Sadhana Panchakam study group in my absence.

I will be back with you after 20th of August. All the Best and happy discussions !!!

Love and Regards,
Padmaja

Hari OM

Padmajaji, wish you a wonderful time during the Dharma Sevak course and look forward to learning from your rich exposure.

In the beginning of the second chapter, we see the turning point in Arjuna. Chastised by Lord Krishna, Arjuna analyzes the situation further. This leads to two important discoveries.
1 His weakness of attachment is a fundamental problem which cannot be solved by superficial methods
2 He has to surrender completely to a guru to get out of this fundamental problem.

Thus Arjuna becomes a sisya by surrendering to Lord Krishna. Naturally Krishna also becomes a Guru from the state of Parthasarathy. Now that the guru – sisya relationship has been struck, the teaching can begin.

The key terms to dwell upon or questions that can probably arise are:

1)Who is a Sisya – One who is mentally fit and receptable for teaching. One who has a open mind with out any prejudices. His open mindedness is expressed by the attitude of Saranagathi.

2)Who is Guru – One who is remover of ignorance by the light of knowledge. He does not merely gives advice but Teaches. Advices can give temporary solution to a particular problem, where as Teaching can resolve the fundamental problem once and for all.

3) What is the fundamental problem – Samsara . The problem of samsara cannot be solved by worldly accomplishments. Worldly accomplishments are for a different purpose but not to remove samsara. As Arjuna says, even if I become Indra, that will not solve my problem. (Money can buy house but not home, can get food but not appease hunger, can get people but not friend). Only by attaining Spiritual Goal ( Shreyas, Moksha) by going to a Guru who is a Shrotriya and Brahmanishtha, Samasara can be resolved.


Usually Padmajaji comes out with brilliant practical questions ; Till she resumes, Request everyone’s further inputs or any other questions that need to be discussed on these verses.

Pranams

Hari Om. Pranam to all.

All the best wishes to Padmajaji and really looking forward to sharing her experiences there. But she must have already left.

Appreciate Muruganji for his gesture to lead and run this forum in the absence of Padmajaji and assure of the best cooperation.

My thoughts on these three verses, 7, 8 and 9. Actually just a summary.

Arjuna, after putting forth all his feeble excuses and trying to justify his mental perplexity has ultimately realized his state of indecision. And he has accepted his state and has surrendered himself at the feet of Krishna. Declaring himself as his disciple ( different from the attitude till now), he is once again reiterating that even if he gets a lordship over the Gods or gets a dominion over the earth, his sorrow would not get mitigated. The mental agony is burning his senses, and saying thus, he tells Krishna that he wouldn’t fight and becomes silent.

The third verse is by Sanjaya, in which while describing Arjuna’s behaviour, he is trying to bring to the notice of Dhritarashtra, the futility of the fight, by narrating wealth of details.

The point to be remembered very importantly , according to me, in Gurudeva’s commentary on Verse 7 is insistence of Hinduism on Manav Dharma, that men should live true to their own essential nature nature, which is godly and divine and all efforts in life should be directed towards maintaining themselves in the dignity of the soul.

Regards

Uma

Hari Om. Pranam to all.

It is indeed a difficult task to think of practical questions on the topic. Padmajaji always comes out with really good and thought provoking questions. But just to keep the discussion on, have thought of these two questions. Posting them with the approval of Muruganji.

1. We hear some stunning, shocking news and are bewildered. What is the first thought that comes to mind ? And what should be our action at such times.

2. What should we do when we are perplexed and indecisive ? What should be done to achieve mental peace and calm and orientation at such times ?


Regards

Uma