Topic of Bliss

Re: Panchadasi Chapter 1

Postby sunilgoel29 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:47 am

Hari Om!
If bliss/happiness is experienceable and inexperience-able, is it like that experience we feel when we are lost in music/satsang/book ? That feeling of bliss is coming because I am experiencing my natural state of self at that time even though I am not aware of that blissful experience; it is only later that I realize that I was in a blissful state. Another example is when you are lost in the beauty of nature, be it a sunset or watching a mountain scenery. Situational happiness which I experience is also making me forget the samsara at that particular moment of time.

However, upon knowledge, a person comes to know that he is already Purnaha, complete and that he does not have any remaining desires; he realizes that he is infinite, Ananta. Being limitless, he is always in a state of ananda.

Are these examples in order?

In Shri Guru Smriti

Sunil Goel
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Re: Panchadasi Chapter 1

Postby Nitarao1 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:54 pm

Hari Om,
My name is Sunitha.
Mr. Goel, your experience while watching Sunset, listening to music etc, is not really an experience of your True state, I think. Because Ananda.of the Self is not dependant on anything external. Blissful state is when you withdraw all your senses inward and shut the outside world of objects and experiences. What the senses feed your mind are false and hence temporary. Ananda is described to be "non-conditional, non-relative and Absolute Bliss".

I think what one experiences during those moments of observing beauty etc is quietitude and happiness which is dependant on external object and hence conditional.
Yes, we are shutting out all the other thoughts but our mind is still focussed on that particular sense perception.
The external factor is controlling the "feeling" at the moment. When it is taken away, we no longer feel happy. This in my opinion cannot be Ananda. If this were so, then one could engage in such pleasurable activities all the time. One doesn't have to seek Knowledge of the Self.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Re: Panchadasi Chapter 1

Postby Arvind » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:37 pm

Hari Om,

To take this forward on the topic of Bliss, let me a quote an example.

Whenever we contact any object or experience there are primarily two entities - object and subject. For example if I am having an ice-cream and enjoying bliss out of it there are two entities - the object the ice-cream and the subject myself.

Happiness cannot be the nature of the object. If that was so, the object must give happiness to all. Not only that it must also give happiness to me at all points of time. But if I am sick, the very ice cream becomes an object of sorrow.

So with this it is proved that bliss in any experience comes from the subject and not the object.

Bliss is experienced in the mind. Whenever we encounter an experience the mind when relatively steady reflects the Self and bliss is experienced. But we think the bliss comes from the object/ experience and get bound. This is bondage. Hence all we can say is bliss experienced in all experiences, including Sattvik activities only comes from the Self but is reflected bliss like the sun reflected in muddy waters. Just like the muddy water reflection is only from the Sun , but muddy. Similarly the mind is muddy (because of the Gunas) hence we experience perverted Bliss.

This topic is dealt in detail in Chapter 15 of Panchadasi by Swami Vidyaranya ji.

Pranaams
Arvind
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Re: Panchadasi Chapter 1

Postby sunilgoel29 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:29 pm

Thank you Arvind ji for the clarification. So does that mean whenever we experience bliss, we are experiencing the self? And when Swami Advayananda ji pointed out that bliss is both experienceable and non-experienceable, is he referring to the mind part which feels the joy and hence experienceable and in-experienceable in the way one reaches the turiya state where no experience is possible or in a state of nirvikalpa samadhi?

And the phala of gnana nishtha or Jivan Mukti is also a blissful state where there are no joys or sorrows, no likes or dislikes and where there are no ego issues.

Sunitha ji, hope Arvind ji's clarification is helpful.

Pranaams and Hari Om.

Regards

Sunil
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Re: Panchadasi Chapter 1

Postby 21512sw4 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:12 pm

Hari Om

What I understand on Ananda I would like to share

Ananda as bliss experience is a very loose understanding which will make us think Brahman as an object to be experienced in the seat of meditation where we observe our mind is trained for entertaining uniform stream of thoughts disconnecting from the routine thoughts in multiples. Ultimately meditation helps us to discipline the mind - [chitta shuddhi and chitta ekagratha] purification of mind & improve concentration. In spiritual path it helps us to do better listening & reflection. Every living would like to remain happy as unhappiness is a foreign object which he wants to get rid off anytime he confronts unpleasant situation. We can understand this with an example - water nature Dharma or Svarupa is coolness. When we boil the water and keep it aside for some time it gets back to its nature Coolness. Likewise a situation may put me unhappy which in Sanskrit we say Aagantukam or temporary nature but would like to avoid this temporary status & seek happiness which is our Real Nature like water.

The point explained by Swamiji that we love only ourselves should be understood properly, love not for the Body Mind Complex. Happiness as emotion belongs to the mind only as PFT. Even a person who wants to commit suicide for having lost respect in the society when he becomes bankrupt but only to be told by his friend that he will bail him out makes him to Live because he wants to Live never want to commit suicide. Here he has not got Atma Gyanam but only want to Live because of his love to Live not accept death because the Self in him never dies. That is his innate nature.

Ananda should be understood as fullness purnatvam. Our fundamental problem of complexes are overcome with the understanding that the happiness I derive from the world are changing, one time the object of happiness will be conducive & sometimes the same object will be not conducive. This understanding using our discriminative mind,will see the defects in the object of the world.

At Guru's feet

Kalyan
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Re: Panchadasi Chapter 1

Postby Nitarao1 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:19 am

Hari Om,

Thank you Arvindji for the clarification. I am taking this subject a little further...

Sunilji in his posting has enquired if we are experiencing our "Natural state of Self" at the time of watching Sunset etc. Yes, it is only a reflection and not the real thing. The happiness we experience in an object is only at the vritti level, "the sky is orange, beautiful" etc, based on our senses. But only when these thoughts are turned inwards (away from the object), to the source, can one know True Bliss. Since Self is not an object of the senses, Absolute Bliss cannot be generated by sense perceptions. The Mind has to be objectless if one has to experience its Real Self.

Self is beyond the mind also. Mind is an essential instrument to realize the state of Bliss. It is only in Satvik state that one sees a reflection of the Ananda aspect of the Self. But this cannot be called Bliss..just as reflection of the Sun cannot be called the Sun. But we do get a iny glimpse of the True Bliss.

Regards
Sunitha
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Re: Panchadasi Chapter 1

Postby sunilgoel29 » Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:27 am

Hari Om Sunitha ji,

I bliss can be reflection, can the I not be a reflection too?

Pranaams!

Sunil
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Re: Panchadasi Chapter 1

Postby sunilgoel29 » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:12 am

Moreover, Sunitha ji, who experiences the so called reflected bliss? The happiness is not in the object but the subject. This is my understanding.

Hari Om.

Sunil
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Re: Panchadasi Chapter 1

Postby Arvind » Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:09 am

Hari Om Sunita ji/ Sunil ji-

My understanding is as follows:

The Bliss experienced is from the Self and not from the object - but as already explained it is only a perverted, reflected or contaminated bliss. It is neither the original bliss of the Self nor everlasting. Had that been so we would not want to enjoy an experience or object again in order to get that. As illustrated with example like the reflection of Sun in muddy water. The reflection in the muddy water is only reflection of the sun but contaminated.

So unless the mud is removed the pure reflection is not seen. Similarly the mind has to be purified and then such a pure mind made to contemplate on the Self - only then the true nature and Bliss of the Self can be experienced. The purer and steady the mind, the greater the reflection.

Hope that makes it clear.

Pranams
Arvind
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Re: Panchadasi Chapter 1

Postby Nitarao1 » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:13 am

Hari Om Sunil ji

To your question on who experiences the Bliss and if it is the Subject.....it is not the Subject Atman which experiences Bliss in objects. It is the jiva or the Ego that is enjoying the sensory perceptions. It is this jiva which goes after objects and enjoys them as well. The Subject which is Atman is not ensnared by Maya.
This is my understanding.

Sunitha
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Re: Panchadasi Chapter 1

Postby Arvind » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:28 am

Hari Om

My understanding is the Self reflected in the mind is what we call as the Ego/ jiva which experiences the bliss or sorrow. The ego has no independent existence, that is why when it is inquired into it disappears for a realised person.

Pranams
Arvind
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Re: Panchadasi Chapter 1

Postby Nitarao1 » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:12 pm

Hari Om,
Jiva or Ego does not have an independent existence of its own. It is when the Self out of ignornace identifies itself with the gross, subtle and causal body, that it comes to be called the Jiva. I think the Ego does not completely disappear even for a Reliazed person. He has to retain a little bit of it for day to day living. His Ego will not be identified with worldly things. Unlike the ignorant, he sees all experiences as that of the mind or the senses and not as "his" experience.

Regards
Sunitha
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Re: Topic of Bliss

Postby subbugnanam » Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:36 pm

HARI OM, This is A.V. ANANTHA SUBRAMANIAM from the group.
There are many points (experience of Bliss, EGO, Ananda, Mind experiencing, etc., etc.,) put forth by the participants on the Topic called BLISS. Instead of attempting each point individually, I have tried to summarise my view on BLISS. I have taken points from the book “Path to Blessedness by Sw. CHIDANANDA. Divine Life Society Publications.

Bliss cannot be equated as “n” to the power of “n” happiness. Suppose you give the most delicious thing to a dumb man, he cannot express the taste. In the same way it is difficult to describe in words the supreme Bliss. Suppose you prepare first-class Kheer by putting rice and sugar into milk itself and boil it. After you have taken the Kheer the servant, while cleaning the vessel finds some quantity left in the vessel, but he had poured water in it already. He drinks it and he gets some taste of the diluted Kheer and not the pure, original undiluted Kheer. Similarly, only a small fraction of the Supreme Bliss alone is what we can experience here. Suppose a man has heard some wonderful concert and gives an account of it. We can get some idea of the concert, but we cannot actually have a complete and correct idea of the concert. We cannot enjoy the concert itself. So also, we can have only some idea of the great joy that is obtained from Samadhi.
HAPPINESS (or shadowy Bliss) is derived from the association of the Indriyas with external object whereas BLISS is a kind of STATE or you can call it as a CONCEPT.
A builder will derive maximum pleasure in seeing his building complex which has come up by destroying a portion of the forest while a nature lover will feel sad about it. Music or paintings, or natural beauty, etc can be experienced only by those who have the taste.
Each experience will have a certain amount of EGO. Any experience will not last long. It has a beginning and an end too.
BLISSFULNESS is that stage, attaining which, there is no other thing to be attained. This means the cessation of all sorrows and the acquisition of unlimited bliss and supreme peace. You have no more want. You have no more craving. You will feel yourself in a state of absolute inner wealth of knowledge or absolute TRUTH.
The joy of infinite freedom comes to the soul when it becomes one with the Supreme Soul. It is something which a person can never know or experience. Oneness is obtained.
Self-denial of worldly objects and denial of any urge to experience with the help of Indriyas and ceaseless effort to become BLISSFUL ultimately end in Supreme Bliss.
Let us further analyse this
What is your highest conception of joy that you can have in the universe? He who possesses everything in this world alone can have that privilege.
Supposing you have got all the refined manner of enjoyment opened up before you, then there is no need to go after gross sensual enjoyment. Therefore, a man possessing everything and having absolute control over everything can enjoy everything in this world. He can enjoy poetry, painting, and everything, and he can have honour from the whole world etc etc etc.....He will get the satisfaction that he is the supreme lord over the whole world.
If this sort of enjoyment is possible to conceive, and if one can get all of it—every sort of sensual enjoyment like dainty dishes, sex, etc., and also music, painting, etc.,—let the joy of that person enjoying all these be considered as one unit of JOY.
The quantum of enjoyment of one who has done merit and become a celestial being, an angel called man-Gandharva, is considered to be “n” times of such a unit of JOY.
If we extrapolate this type of enjoyment of man-Gandharva to divine Gandharvas, to Manes to the enjoyment of those that are born as gods in heaven, the joy of Karma-Devas who become gods through meritorious Karmas, the joy of the permanent gods in the heavens, the joy of Indra, the joy of Brihaspati, joy of Virat, the bliss of the Creator, Brahma, but infinite times more than the bliss of Brahma is the bliss of Parabrahman.
This is a calculus of joy given in the scriptures.
So the bliss of the eternal, supreme fruit of Yoga is simply indescribable. So they say it is divine ecstasy. They cannot express it. That is the ultimate fruit of the state of super consciousness which can be attained through the eight stages, Yama, Niyama, Asana, Pranayama, Pratyahara, Dharana, Dhyana and Samadhi. It is infinite bliss that dissolves your individual consciousness. One who gets this bliss cannot say anything.
That is the state of the highest Samadhi. Until you get the highest Samadhi, you get only so much of that bliss.
So we have known something about the bliss of Self-realisation.
What is the bliss of all worldly objects put together when compared to That! The bliss of Realisation is limitless bliss. The bliss of the non-self is limited. The bliss of the Self is eternal. It never perishes and you are yourself that. That is your real nature. But through ignorance and desire you have forgotten your real nature. Control the senses, remove ignorance and know your real nature. Be still and know the Self and attain the Supreme Bliss.
The ultimate goal of every Jiva, individual soul, is the attainment of union with the Supreme Soul. Even the rain-water flows through the rivers and merges into the sea wherefrom it originated and forgets its identity.
HARI OM.
Pranam, id. subbugnanam
Hari Om, With regards,
A.V.ANANTHA SUBRAMANIAM
SADHAKA
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Re: Topic of Bliss

Postby sunilgoel29 » Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:46 pm

Hari Om!

The self is bliss (ananda) as it is always in a state of completeness and never wanting of anything. If it is always full and complete, always desireless, and there is no other ananda which can surpass this ananda. It does not have any degree of happiness. It is constantly full and content. I also want to exist forever, as no matter what, I always want to prolong my life. This love of life is the love of self. Even if I contemplate ending my life, it is to end the miseries of my mind and body and not to end the self. In fact it is to make myself continue. If there were another way to end the miseries, I would happily select that alternative. Even loving someone else is for my sake, to keep my self happy. I usually do not love strangers. This extreme love for the self proves beyond doubt that I the self am the source of absolute bliss, ananda. As long as I am alive, my ahamkara is part of my antahkarana. This ahamkara, when looked at closely, is the self, the ananda, because my ultimate love can come from ananda only. Otherwise, why will I say that Aham Brahmasmi. As the body falls, if I have achieved Jivan Mukti while living, the "I", being identical with Brahman, merges (as if) with the Parabrahman. I say as if, because, in fact they are already one and merged. That ego which associated with "my" body, doesn't exist anymore. When I realize that all other experiences and objects are anatma and non-eternal, I come to understand that these objects and experiences can only give me experiential joy which doesn't last for ever. Only when I come to understand that Brahman is the eternal and all full, that I realize that Aham purnaha asmi. And when I understand that Aham purnaha asmi, I feel infinite contentment which is nothing but bliss. The waters may get muddy, but when I realize that the pure water is me only after removal of all impurities, then there is no difference between the Bimba and pratibimba. Everything is Brahman and only Brahman and is eternally blissful.

This is how I understand bliss, dear colleagues.

Pranaams!

In Shri Guru Smriti

Sunil Goel
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Re: Topic of Bliss

Postby Nitarao1 » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:57 am

Hari Om,
On the topic of Bliss, I came across a beautiful description in "Wanderings in the Himalayas" by Swami Tapovanji.

Tranquility is Truth
Truth is Beauty
Beauty is Bliss
Bliss is Divinity

Swami Tapovanji makes this statement, when he describes the beauty of the Himalayas and how
he would go into Samadhi in its peaceful surroundings. He is referring to the tranquil state of the
mind one experiences in the midst of Nature.

Going back to the first post made by Sunilji....It seems possible to feel the Self when you are lost in the
Beauty of Sunset or divine music and so on.

Regards
Sunitha
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Re: Topic of Bliss

Postby sunilgoel29 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:28 pm

Namashkaar Sunitha Ji,

In my opinion, the self can never be experienced. It can only be understood and then after dwelling on Jiva Brahman aikya for a very long time and after this knowledge has become natural to me, will I start experiencing the phala of the knowledge. I can only experience the fruit and not the knowledge itself. So music or nature may inspire you and absorb you and momentarily may bring you to a blissful like state. That state will have two components.......one is the ahamkara, the other is the feeling of peace and completeness. If we are able to extricate the ahamkara, and just understand that state of peace/bliss and realize that that blissful state is Brahman and that I am only a medium through which I have gained that understanding, will we start to get gnana phala or jivanmukti. The more we dwell upon this, the more hold it will get on my intellect and more the intensity of the knowledge-results will start coming to me.

Kindly share your views.

Kind regards

Sunil
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Re: Topic of Bliss

Postby subbugnanam » Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:08 pm

Dear all those who have participated in this discussion, Hari Om, from A.V.Anantha Subramaniam.
1. Shadow will give joy if there is sunshine because there is a desire to get out of sunshine. But this joy will vanish if there is no sunlight and only darkness.
2. When you are caught in a whirlpool and come out it you are at great relief because of your desire to come out of the whirlpool.
3. A music lover alone can enjoy the music that too how long? After sometime some other petty silly desire will override the desire for music. In the same way the natural state to remain in peace vanish due to some desire.
3. If there is no sorrow will anyone search for Joy/happiness!! No. That means there will be desire at all if there is no sorrow.
Two options are left.
1. Not to get into sorrowful state or
2. Have no desire.
Sorrow comes when the desire is not achieved.
Therefore Only option is not to have desire. Therefore Desireless state is the TRUTH i.e. Natural state of Consciousness. This state will come only when any one come out of whirlpool of birth and death. Body pain is not sorrowful state. Many inflict injuries or fast on some purpose etc to achieve higher desire. Disappointment is sorrowful state.
Conclusion: There is no BLISSFUL STATE – There is only DESIRELESSNESS state.
Hari Om, With regards,
A.V.ANANTHA SUBRAMANIAM
SADHAKA
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