Chidabaasa and Consciousness

Re: Chidabhasa and consciousness

Postby sunilgoel29 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:10 am

Hari Om & Pranaams!

There is so much discussion and confusion on original and reflected consciousness. The confusion comes when I first come to understand that my consciousness is a reflection of the original consciousness. That makes me incidental. So how am I Brahman........in the first instance I say that I am because of Brahman and not Brahman itself. Then I'm made to understand that I am an appearance only........the confusion that arises there is that if I am an appearance only, then do I really exist? Another confusion arises when I say that I do exist, that I do love myself and that I am sentient.......is the existent I really sentient or is it the ahamkara saying that I exist and so on! If I drop my ego, then there is no I and no existence for my BMI.

I think the confusion is arising at the point when the ego is originated. It is then when I ask Who am I? Did the I start when I was conceived, or when my heart started beating or when my senses matured, even though consciousness continued to bless me in all states. Anyways, I became I when was probably 4 or 5 months old. Before that I had no notion who was I.

But when I understand that it is the original consciousness only that is enlivening my body, not necessarily like a mirror reflection example, but more like a magnet drawing the iron filings or heat permeating the vessel, that I actually understand that it is the original one consciousness only that is permeating my body thru the vessel of mind. Then only I realize that I am identical with the original Brahman. It is not like the reflected light of a mirror lighting up a room. This particular example is good but has its limitations.

Any thoughts on this please.

In Shri Guru Smriti

Sunil Goel
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Re: Chidabaasa and Consciousness

Postby 21512sw4 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:00 pm

Hari Om Sunilji

Your Question I want to restate to my understanding:

How can Me be Brahman as I am transacting with Reflected Consciousness Chidabasa? Why not we understand from somebody directing Me like Iron particles are activated in the presence of Magnet?

My Answers may help you understand & will show my understanding

First of all we must understand

how do we say I exist & Why a dead body does not say I exist?

The Mind the reflecting medium RM like mirror must receive the light to make the room bright. Just because I have Mirror in the room does not make the room bright but a whole [itself is not bright] through which the Sun light falls on the mirror likewise the mind the reflecting medium [mirror] is given to the Gross body to fructify the Prarabdha Phala. The Mind [consist of 4 parts] is part of Sukshma Sarira 19 factors [5 Gyana indriya +5 Karma Indriya + 5 pranas + Mana + Bhuddhi+ Chitta + Ahamkara] . The reflected medium helps us to enjoy this world, in short to transact with the world in waking state & dream state but in deep sleep state mind goes to rest hence no transaction with the world. Here we must stop further the example of Mirror further. Just because the mirror is covered by dust the Sun Light cannot be construed as not being present, same way the Mind is asleep not active, gone to complete Thamasic State, the light the Original Consciousness continued to exist and enable the other parts of Sukshma Sarira chitta & Ahamkara not ego in the neative sense but to identify with the BMI. So the Chidabasa - RC is also helping us as to pursue the spiritual path. By Sravana Manana Nidhidhyasana we get aproksha Anubuthi of Brahman.

In the case of Magnet the iron files are activated we must understand that Brahman is a Sakshimatra. In its presence everything works need to be present, but for its presence nothing operates. In Drk Drsya Viveka we understand
that to see That which objectifies the mind cannot be objectified.

Drishtantas are given to understand the Drashtanta & cannot go beyond the Drishtanta for understanding the teaching.

The question how & when ahamkara is activated & when the intellect is activated fully, how the memory is developed are all taking place based on the 6 vikaras the body has. The subtle body gets into the mother womb along with the gross egg. As mother's food is shared by the egg & grows into a child. The subtle body comes along with this body as part of Sanchita Karma [karma meaning phala in the form of Suka/Dhuka] the Prarabdha Karma to fructify with this body. Notion I starts when the identification with this body comes right from the feeling I am hungry - I cry to get food when something pricks me I cry, I smile when pleasant things happen. PFT keeps progressing when the OET [objects, emotions & thoughts] are perceived by BMI as days progress due to 6 vikaras.

At the dawn of knowledge the karmas which give new bodies are burnt & identification with self is established though we transact with the world as Jeevan Mukta and when the body falls there is no re-birth.

In Guru Smriti

Kalyan

We use the word Experience of Self for the sake of understanding
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Re: Chidabaasa and Consciousness

Postby RoopaSatish » Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:06 pm

Hari Om Sunil

My name is Roopa. I am a student of Advance Vedanta Postal Course. I recently joined in the Panchadashi webinars. Since I have missed the earlier sessions, I have been reading on the internet several commentaries on this topic - Chidabassa and Consciousness, that you have raised.

I found a very nice explanation on the internet which I found easy to understand. It is written by one Mr Alan Jacobs. I am merely editing and re-producing some parts of his commentary as I understood this topic. I hope it is as useful to you as it was for me. Pls correct me if my below understanding is wrong or If I have misunderstood your question.

Imagine this example or draw it out on a piece of paper:

1. The Lamp – As a powerful light of the Self.(True Consciousness)
2. Draw a door beyond the lamp (later referred to as Sleep).
3. Beyond the door - at the door step - draw a dotted line - The Mirror (this is formed due to Ego & will be explained later)

Then beyond this the house :

4. The Inner Wall which is the ignorant state of the Causal body.
5. The Egotism which is the false identification with the causal body and contains the vasanas
6. The inner chamber or the Deep Sleep state in which the Causal body of Ignorance is manifest
7. The middle chamber or the Dream state in which the subtle body is manifest
8. The outer courtyard which is the waking state when the gross body is manifest
9. The windows are our five senses of sight, hearing, touch, taste and smell.

Now, when the door is shut (ie when we are in deep sleep) only Self shines. There is no egotism now , no waking state and no dream state. Hence we feel rejuvenated in the Deep Sleep state.

When the door is open, in our waking and dream states, the ego kicks in. The Mirror is formed due to ego. Pure light of the Self is reflected in the mirror. Since this is merely a Mirror reflection naturally the light is of a lower intensity than the direct Lamp.

Now, the world can be seen either directly using the Lamp or through this reflected light of the lamp in the mirror.
(Full Consciousness v/s Reflected Consciousness due to Egotism and Vasanas.)
> An Enlightened person sees the world directly with the full power of Consciousness as his Ego is absent.
> We perceive the world only through our Reflected Consciousness

Only when the Vasanas are removed, we perceive the world directly ie perceive the substratum or Brahman directly, no longer from the "split mind state of object and subject" but from what is called the ‘no mind state’ which is the Self Realised State.

Therefore the whole thrust of a student of Vedanta is to learn to drop the Ego to perceive the Self.
Hari Om

Roopa
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Re: Chidabaasa and Consciousness

Postby sunilgoel29 » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:13 am

Hari Om Roopa ji,


"When the door is open, in our waking and dream states, the ego kicks in. The Mirror is formed due to ego. Pure light of the Self is reflected in the mirror. Since this is merely a Mirror reflection naturally the light is of a lower intensity than the direct Lamp."

Agreed, ego expresses itself only in dream and sleep states. Does the ego come first or does the mind come first? I think ego is part of the mind........ahamkara is included in the antahkarana. Both come from the Sattva guna of the Prakriti. Are you saying that "I" the ego, creates the mind stuff? "I"is nothing but Brahman which you referred to as pure light. It is because of Brahman/I, that Maya appears as many minds and bodies. Hence, it is correct that the mirror, the mind stuff "appears" as Avidya because of I the pure Brahman and not because of I the ego.

By the way, in my understanding, the difference in original and reflected consciousness is only semantics, just as the heat of the fire and the heat in the water due to fire......both are same and identical. I just need to remove the ahamkara and then there will be only that. I am that only as long as I consider myself separate......otherwise that is that only or I is I.

This is my little comment on your post. Thank you.

In Shri Guru Smriti

Sunil
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Re: Chidabaasa and Consciousness

Postby RoopaSatish » Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:11 am

Hari Om Sunilji,
Thank you for your response. I think we are on the same page - am answering some of questions you’ve raised so that there is no mis-understanding :
a) Question “Are you saying from the I-the ego, creates mind? “
No, I am not saying Ego creates mind. I agree with you – Avidya creates both the Ego and Mind and both are different aspects of antakarana.
b) Question “Does the ego come first or does the mind come first?”
I think we both understand that between, Buddhi(Intellect), Mind (Manas), Ego (Ahamkara), and Memory (Chitt) one cannot say what comes first and what comes next. All are merely thought modifications.

Coming to the more important discussion on Reflected-Consciousness :

I understand the heat example you use – In your first post you mentioned that heat permeating through the vessel is a better example of reflected consciousness. Yes, this example is interesting; can I also add to this that depending on the quality of the vessel, the heat is either well conducted and the vessel heats up quickly or it takes a long time to heat. (Just like quality of the mind)

Forgive me for persisting but I find the mirror example so apt and beautiful – especially because we are talking about Consciousness. Consciousness as you know is often compared to Light - we call it Jyoti or “Light of Consciousness”.

Now, when we say Reflected Consciousness – the Mind-Intellect is also an inert object but it has that a peculiar characteristic. It reflects. It is just its nature. Like a mirror or water – the mind also reflects, all are inert. (Eg : On a full moon day, you cannot see the reflection of the moon in the ground or on stones – but you can see it in the water. That is the nature of the water as a material which is different from earth. Both are inert. When we stand facing a wall, only the mirror on the wall will reflect our face not the other parts of the wall. Some inert objects reflect and some objects don’t reflect so well – Infact, this explains why we cannot perceive Consciousness in many inert substances around us although Consciousness is everywhere)

So, as the Mind-Intellect has this quality and since Consciousness is like Light – the Mind reflects this light. The body doesn’t. I came across this quote while I was studying Atmabodha:

sadaa sarvagatoapyaatmaa na sarvatraavabhaaste
buddhaavevaavabhaaseta svachchheshhu pratibimbavatah

The Atman does not shine in everything although He is All-pervading. He is manifest only in the inner equipment, the intellect (Buddhi): just as the reflection in a clean mirror.

When Consciousness shines through the mind, it enlivens us and we experience the world outside. We can feel this experience of Consciousness in the mind every minute. We think it is Consciousness but in reality it is a false perception of Consciousness as this is limited by the mind's experiences. That is why it is called “Chit “abhasa” – “A false reflection” of the Chit in our mind.

I just wanted to explain some aspects of this beautiful an subtle representation of mirror and reflection to you as I understood it. I hope I have made the example a little more appealing to you.

Coming to your first post - does that make us incidental? Yes it certainly makes this BMI Identity of us incidental and I see no reason for confusion - It does make us as well as everything else we see around us have a dependent reality; dependent on Consciousness, which is the only Reality. Isn’t that Oneness the beauty of Advaita Vedanta?

Pranams. Happy learning.

Roopa
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Re: Chidabaasa and Consciousness

Postby sunilgoel29 » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:23 pm

Hari Om, Roopa ji,

Namaskaaram !

The point that I am trying to make, Roopa Ji, is that reflected consciousness is not original and I the ego as well as all the sentiency that I experience is all borrowed, hence, in the mirror example, "I" exist only because of Brahman and not that "I" am Brahman (identical). I think the focus of our learning is to try and understand that I and Brahman are identical and not similar, or not that one light is not brighter than the other........both are of equal intensity. The word "reflection", in my opinion, doesn't convey identiticalness........the reflection of the sun in the water is not the original sun. However, if I say the medium of water is removed, then there would be no reflected image. Similarly, if there were no mind, there would be no "I".

Now, the question is, is "I" also mithya? But then I very much experience the sentiency......so that makes I sentient. This is the contradiction I am facing, if you can understand what I mean. This is the reason I used the vessel heat example as I find that more apt, even though that is also secondary having come thru the vessel.

Happy learning to you too.

In Shri Guru Smriti

Sunil
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Re: Chidabaasa and Consciousness

Postby 81602S012 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:45 am

Hair Om
Please correct me with my understanding.
Chidbhasa is reflection. We the pure form are coloured with the Gunas.
As of the mirror Subject object reflection.It is 3 minus 1 equals one. When we remove the mirror it is only Self.
Reflection as I understand is coloured with our Gunas. We are identical in our purest Sattvic mind.Essence is the same as in ocean and wave it is water.. the small I resolves in Big I when there is no more ego and iness n mine.
Please correct my understanding.
Hair om
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Re: Chidabaasa and Consciousness

Postby RoopaSatish » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:43 am

Hari Om Lalitaji and Sunilji,
I am able to appreciate both the perspectives - the heat and vessel and the mirror. To me both are similar:
 just like the reflection is not as clear as the original, the heat emanating from water is not as hot as fire.
 The mirror is the mind , the vessel is the mind
I loved the 3-1=1 example. If you remove the mirror or the vessel, only the original remains.

Sunilji, are you referring to I as Brahman or I as the Individual Jiva with BMI personality? The latter is definitely Mithya – because it is born out of Karana Sarira (Avidya).

Yes, this “I” experiences sentience – that’s what the mirror and vessel example is about – this experience while it appears as consciousness to us, it is a different form of consciousness. (the reflection is not the original and the heat in water is not Fire – its of much lower intensity)

The sentience or awareness we experience is vis-a-vis objects and experiences: We are conscious of our body, our thoughts, our surroundings, conscious of our headache /pain, etc , etc. This is the consciousness Science understands - the Consciousness of the mind – Its called Qualia – its the subjective conscious experience.

To Scientists Pure Consciousness does not exist – when there is no Subject-Object difference. That’s Brahman.
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Re: Chidabaasa and Consciousness

Postby RoopaSatish » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:31 am

Continuing the explanation of Qualia to make the 'subjective' aspect clearer -

As per Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy “Feelings and experiences vary widely. For example, I run my fingers over sandpaper, smell a skunk, feel a sharp pain in my finger, seem to see bright purple, become extremely angry. In each of these cases, I am the subject of a mental state with a very distinctive subjective character (object). There is something it is like for me to undergo each state, some phenomenology that it has. Philosophers often use the term ‘qualia’ (singular ‘quale’) to refer to the introspectively accessible, phenomenal aspects of our mental lives.”

It is called subjective because no two experiences of individuals are alike.
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Re: Chidabaasa and Consciousness

Postby 81602S012 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:01 am

Thank you Roopaji,
Again ,there is absolute Brahman, the jiva and the world. The absolute Brahman is pure consciousness in and through all . we the jiva with our Gunas see the world as we want and do not see the world as it is ,so we are subjective. Why ? again because of the predominance of the Gunas SRT is different in every respective individuals Because reflection is cloured with the Gunas we are not objective .We are not able to see the oneness of consciousness.
That is why we are jiva.
I am really sorry if my understanding is wrong.
Have only attended 2 last sessions. Struggling with Sanskrit terms . Have not completed listening to previous sessions

Hari Om
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