Week 7 Queries

This forum is for queries and related discussions with respect to the Sanskrit Webinar Class conducted by Dr Varun.

Week 7 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:47 am

Dear All,

Hari Om!

This week we finished naming dhātus and started on the process of "cleaning them up" -- it-saṁjñā. How exciting! Once the dhātus are cleaned up, they will be ready for interaction with the world...

Please post all queries related to this week's class under this topic heading. I have posted the homework on the Google Drive here -- https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B275bhG7zi2zd1NsSF9Ddl9TUkU

If you missed it, you can view this week's webinar here -- https://youtu.be/RYq4BKX5bPU

Much Sanskrit love,

Varun
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby pankaj10312 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:57 pm

Hari Om Varun Ji,

Please forgive my ignorance. Two Questions.
One, when we use the PRATYAHARA अण how to know it is the ण of row 1 vs 6 in the Maheshwara sutras?.
Also, if you could explain the significance of the small line under it. Somehow, I could not get it on the key board.

Thanks,

Pankaj
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:57 am

pankaj10312 wrote:One, when we use the PRATYAHARA अण how to know it is the ण of row 1 vs 6 in the Maheshwara sutras?


Dear Pankaj ji,

Hari Om!

Great question. I was waiting for someone to ask this. There is only one time in all of Sanskrit grammar when the ending ण् of the प्रत्याहार called अण् refers to the second ण्. In all other cases, it refers only to the first ण्. So for your purposes, only think of it as referring to the first ण्, and thus the प्रत्याहार refers only to अ, इ, and उ.

pankaj10312 wrote:Also, if you could explain the significance of the small line under it. Somehow, I could not get it on the key board.


When you write a letter in Sanskrit, say for example क, then there is one extra letter included there that you do not see -- अ. So actually क is a combination of two letters. When you write it as क् (with the little line under it), however, you are indicating that you want to refer to क without the added अ. So क - अ = क्. This is extremely important for our purposes, because in vyākaraṇa our analysis goes all the way down to the level of individual letters. As for how you make it on your keyboard, if you post some info, like your operating system and font that you are using, then someone on this discussion forum may be able to help you.

All the best,

Varun
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby kmksde1974 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:14 pm

The little line under it is halanth.क्
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby kmksde1974 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:19 pm

Namaste, Arun Khanna mahodaya,
Thank you for posting the notes for lesson 7. If you post the notes in Devanagari lipi it will be more useful.
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby ckpatel » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:10 am

Namaste Varun ji!

Question about second sutra halantyam (1.3.3) : This borrows two words upadese and it from the previous sutra upadese janunasikah it. How do we know it borrows those two words?

Thanks,
Chandu Patel
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby banibha » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:26 pm

Namaste Varunji,
I started doing the homework (almost done). It is a great way to figure out all the 'Yuktaas swara' by doing the Anupurbis.

My mother language is Bengali and I also learned English because we all have to. In both of these two languages I never had to deal with unclean verbs then clean them up to make clean verbs.

While doing the Anupurbis and attaching the 'it' flag, I was wondering why we are doing these, and why can't we use the clean verbs in the first place. And from where we are getting these unclean verbs? I don't know the meaning of most of them.

Please explain and I just can't wait to see how the clean verbs looks like.

Thanks
Bani Bhattacharyya
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby Vasishta » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:52 am

Dear Varun-ji, thank you for providing actual examples in lesson seven, makes it much easier to follow.
I would like to sum up my understanding of the rules for marking a root with "it"
Since all roots which end in nasalised vowels and all "hal" consonants are marked, the only things which are excluded from being marked are all non nasalised vowels. Is this correct? Hari Om Ester
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby kmksde1974 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:33 pm

Namo namaha, Varun Khanna mahodaya,
In the home work of L 7, some Dhatus ends with vowel,but there is no anuswara.Then it is not possible to treat it as इत् .
Then what is to be done ? As you said इत् will be considered in the condition of 1) ends with हल्। Example. ट् २) ends with vowel with anuswara example अँ
Please clarify.
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby shahs2 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:59 am

namaste,
Our's is the same question as another vidyarthi, for "halantyam (1.3.3). This sūtra says, hal antyam. And
from the previous sūtra, it borrows two words: upadeśe and it." How do we know, first of all, that this sutra needs to borrow? And if so, which portions to borrow?
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby aprasana » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:29 am

Hari Om
Homework related question
is this correct?
For #32 - Au + Am + va + ra ...

For #38
Are there 2 ita samjnas
im + na

thanks and regards,
-prasana
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby pankaj10312 » Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:59 am

Hari Om Varun Ji,

Questions.

Looking at week 3 Homework, in making a Pratyahar, do we not include a letter with a halant?
Like in ह ल , we did not include ट with the halant.

In week 7 homework, pretty much all the 50 Dhatus are ending either in nasalized Vowel requiring it , or ह ल consonant requiring it, in some places, we need to insert it , for a nasalized vowel in between!

Please forgive for these naive questions. Still Learning.

Pankaj
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:49 pm

kmksde1974 wrote:The little line under it is halanth.क्


The little line under it is not actually called "halanta", it is called "avasāna". "halanta" simply means something that has a "hal" (consonant) at the "anta" (end). That means any word that has a consonant at the end is called "halanta". Thus, the little line is not called halanta. It is called "avasāna", which means "break", "ending", "rest".
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:55 pm

ckpatel wrote:Question about second sutra halantyam (1.3.3) : This borrows two words upadese and it from the previous sutra upadese janunasikah it. How do we know it borrows those two words?


shahs2 wrote:Our's is the same question as another vidyarthi, for "halantyam (1.3.3). This sūtra says, hal antyam. And
from the previous sūtra, it borrows two words: upadeśe and it." How do we know, first of all, that this sutra needs to borrow? And if so, which portions to borrow?


Dear Chandu ji and shahs,

Hari Om!

Great question. When combined with the "anuvṛtti", or the borrowed words from previous sūtras, each sūtra should be a complete sentence in itself. Thus, to make "halantyam" a complete statement, we know we need to borrow "upadeśe" and "it". Mostly, we gain this knowledge from paramparā, or from the teacher. But if left to each sūtra by ourselves, and given enough time, we should theoretically be able to figure out which sūtra borrows which words from previous sūtras.

This is the sūtra style of literature. It tries to reduce as many words (and even reducing as many single letters) as possible from each sūtra, for brevity. To do this, it sees which words in the sūtra are the same as words from previous sūtras, and omits them. We are supposed to understand that they are borrowed words from before. It is actually brilliant. But thankfully we don't write like that anymore!

Hope this helps,

Varun
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:06 pm

banibha wrote:While doing the Anupurbis and attaching the 'it' flag, I was wondering why we are doing these, and why can't we use the clean verbs in the first place. And from where we are getting these unclean verbs? I don't know the meaning of most of them. Please explain and I just can't wait to see how the clean verbs looks like.


Dear Bani ji,

Hari Om!

Good question. I will answer this in the coming session, but let me explain a little bit here. The reason why you don't see "unclean" verbal roots, or verbal roots burdened by extra letters in them, in your mother tongue or in English is because these languages don't rely upon roots to create their words in the same way that Sanskrit does.

Each letter that we will ultimately clean off from the verbal root tells us something we will need to know later. For example, you go to your friend's house in a car. Even though ultimately only you, not your car, needed to reach your friend's house, you still needed a car to get there! So if someone asks, hey, why did you need the car? After all, it is only you that needs to reach your friend's house, right? Well, you needed the car because it was what took you to your friend's house. You couldn't reach there by yourself.

Similarly, the verbal roots on their own don't have any direction, they don't know which pratyayas to attach to, they don't know how to attach, etc. The it-saṁjñā letters, or the letters with the it-flag on them will tell us where to go. They are like the car that will take the dhātu to its final destination -- a word that we can actually speak. You'll see as we go on how these it-saṁjñā letters help us. Not to worry.

The verbal roots themselves are found in Pāṇini's Dhātupāṭha. They are found in the "unclean" state, but every "extra" letter that Pāṇini gives us is useful for us to determine some other operation to perform later. It is actually amazing when you think of the big picture. How did he think of everything?? Anyway, we will continue to investigate together in the next class!

All the best,

Varun
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:09 pm

Vasishta wrote:Dear Varun-ji, thank you for providing actual examples in lesson seven, makes it much easier to follow.
I would like to sum up my understanding of the rules for marking a root with "it"
Since all roots which end in nasalised vowels and all "hal" consonants are marked, the only things which are excluded from being marked are all non nasalised vowels. Is this correct? Hari Om Ester


Dear Ester ji,

Hari Om!

Only nasalized vowels (wherever they may be, not only at the end of verbal root!) and ending consonants (these are only at the end!) get the it-marker. So the things which (so far) are excluded from being marked are all non-nasalized vowels and all non-ending consonants.

Hope this clarifies.

Varun
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:11 pm

kmksde1974 wrote:Namo namaha, Varun Khanna mahodaya,
In the home work of L 7, some Dhatus ends with vowel,but there is no anuswara.Then it is not possible to treat it as इत् .
Then what is to be done ? As you said इत् will be considered in the condition of 1) ends with हल्। Example. ट् २) ends with vowel with anuswara example अँ
Please clarify.


Dear kmksde1974,

Hari Om!

You don't have to do anything with the ending vowels that are non anunāsika (also known as ananunāsika). Only mark the nasalized vowels and ending consonants.

All the best,

Varun
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:18 pm

aprasana wrote:Hari Om
Homework related question
is this correct?
For #32 - Au + Am + va + ra ...

For #38
Are there 2 ita samjnas
im + na

thanks and regards,
-prasana


Hari Om Prasana ji,

32. ओँ व् र् अ श् च् ऊँ -- here both ओ and ऊ get the इत्-संज्ञा.

38. Yes, there are two इत्-संज्ञाs. च् अ क् ष् इँ ङ् -- इ and ङ् both get it.

Good work,

Varun
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby VarunKhanna » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:21 pm

pankaj10312 wrote:Looking at week 3 Homework, in making a Pratyahar, do we not include a letter with a halant?
Like in ह ल , we did not include ट with the halant.

In week 7 homework, pretty much all the 50 Dhatus are ending either in nasalized Vowel requiring it , or ह ल consonant requiring it, in some places, we need to insert it , for a nasalized vowel in between!


Dear Pankaj ji,

Hari Om!

About week 3 -- correct. You don't include the ending letters of any of the सूत्रs. The ending letters are only handholds to help you know where to stop your प्रत्याहार. Once you choose an ending letter, all the other ending letters disappear from view. And then the ending letter you chose also disappears once you reach it.

About week 7 -- you seem to have understood what's going on ok!

All the best,

Varun
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Re: Week 7 Queries

Postby branganathan » Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:01 pm

Dear VarunJi:
You told us that the इत् can be added to an अनुनासिका. The example you showed us was the word पत्लृ and the last letter which is also a vowel has been turned into an अनुनासिका and because of this we can add the इत्. Under what circumstance are we allowed to turn a vowel into an अनुनासिका ? Is there a rule for this?
For the second example णीञ् there is not confusion as this already an अनुनासिका.

Thank you,

Ranganathan
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